Apologist and author Lonny Robison joins us to discuss interacting with skeptics, atheists, and anti-theists (?) on the internet. Is that a fruitful and wise activity? We also discuss Dr. Craig Keener’s massive work on miracles, recounting testimonies of people healed of migraines, holes in their hearts, and even an older lady who was enabled to walk again after years in a wheelchair! What do all of these miracles mean, and can they be used as evidence to prove biblical accounts to skeptics?

Here are links to Lonny’s books on Amazon:

The Atheist’s Tale¬†by Og Keep

Caveman Apologetics by Og Keep

How to Be a Christian by Og Keep

Murray Moose and the Glowing Baby by Og Keep

Daddy, Who’s That Man? By Cliff Robison (one of my daughter Phoebe’s favorite books)

Vowel Play by Cliff Robison

Murder on a Different Scale by Cliff Robison

Coding Hour by Cliff Robison

Customer Service by Cliff Robison (Who’s that guy on the cover?!)

A Trufflesome Murder by Cliff Robison

Bell, Book and Bullets by Cliff Robison

Here is a rough and unedited transcript of the interview:

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[Unknown8]: and here we are we are joined by

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[Unknown9]: seven

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[Unknown8]: international man of mystery lonnie robinson and i call him an international man

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[Unknown8]: of min mystery because he has more than one name lonnie i understand you have

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[Unknown8]: written books under three different names not your own so i guess i i should start

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[Unknown8]: out by asking how many books have you written

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[Unknown9]: altogether i think the count right now is fourteen

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[Unknown8]: fourteen well that’s a lot more than i have written

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[Unknown9]: that have

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[Unknown9]: that i have

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[Unknown8]: okay

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[Unknown9]: self published um that’s you know i mean i have you know papers that i’ve written

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[Unknown9]: and started and never finished that are date back into the eighty seconds or

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[Unknown9]: seventy seconds even

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[Unknown9]: eighties i think mostly

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[Unknown8]: and uh because you were on the run from the government or something like that you

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[Unknown8]: have written them under three different names right

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[Unknown9]: well yes

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[Unknown9]: the government was not actually involved i have to confess you know not even that

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[Unknown9]: time that i got kicked out of canada

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[Unknown9]: there yes there are uh there are three names that i’ve written under ogg keep was

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[Unknown9]: is one and i had a particular reason for using that one cliff robinson that’s

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[Unknown9]: basically my middle name

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[Unknown9]: and then

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[Unknown9]: anthony a abc and that was for a particular work that um i was uncertain how that

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[Unknown9]: one would be received and so i wanted to

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[Unknown9]: and also i wanted it to be alphabetically first so anthony has

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[Unknown8]: yeah

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[Unknown9]: two as

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[Unknown8]: anthony ar vark is

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[Unknown9]: that puts it even ahead of

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[Unknown8]: it’s gonna show up very high in any sort of alphabetical list the name i’m really

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[Unknown8]: interested in i i think i know where cliff robinson comes from the name that’s

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[Unknown8]: really interesting to me is ag keep which is nothing like your real name how did

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[Unknown8]: you come up with that name

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[Unknown9]: well og keep is just this guy you know

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[Unknown9]: the the idea uh i had been

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[Unknown9]: how should we say smiting some infidels on the internet and that arose as a result

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[Unknown9]: of you know i would be on a forum

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[Unknown8]: oh

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[Unknown9]: minding my own business someone would start a religion thread and it was just

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[Unknown8]: eight

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[Unknown9]: ridiculous and so i would reply to that and you know so there was a lot of give

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[Unknown9]: and take back and forth and so i found myself saying the same things over and over

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[Unknown9]: so i wanted to just put it down in writing once and be done with it and i assigned

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[Unknown9]: that caveman apologetics the idea was just

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[Unknown9]: you know apologetics for the everyday caveman

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[Unknown8]: my sister

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[Unknown9]: and ogg keep agg the caveman was actually the author of the first edition

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[Unknown9]: as it happened there was a a lady maggie pegs of custom book tik dot com in uh

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[Unknown9]: montreal canada i

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[Unknown8]: sometimes

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[Unknown9]: understand she has since moved to greece but maggie helped me to recreate the

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[Unknown9]: second edition which and she suggested that i changed the name although she got

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[Unknown9]: why i used og the caveman she thought that something with more of a last name

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[Unknown9]: might be better she suggested keep

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[Unknown9]: as uh for example

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[Unknown8]: hm okay

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[Unknown9]: brother’s keeper and so that was kind of the idea of where og keep came from

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[Unknown8]: gotcha so you’ve published several books under the name odd keep including caveman

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[Unknown8]: apologetics which i have right here and how to be a christian which is somewhere

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[Unknown8]: over my left shoulder and a few other books and and so you started writing

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[Unknown8]: apologetics works at least because of your interactions with uh atheists skeptics

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[Unknown8]: at agnostics et cetera on the internet

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[Unknown8]: how

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[Unknown8]: what kind of fruit

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[Unknown9]: this is

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[Unknown8]: have you had what kind of results have you had in discussing on the internet with

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[Unknown8]: skeptics i’ll i’ll tell you my experience my experience is that we are roughly

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[Unknown8]: five or ten times uh more stubborn and hard headed and freer with our words on the

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[Unknown8]: internet than we are in real life and therefore it can be really difficult to have

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[Unknown8]: a rational conversation with somebody who disagrees with you how have your efforts

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[Unknown8]: been met on the internet with people who don’t agree with you

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[Unknown9]: uh well i have to agree with you that um

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[Unknown8]: school

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[Unknown9]: something about being on the other side of a computer tends to make us dig in our

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[Unknown9]: heels and and be absolutely hard headed i have had a very small percentage

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[Unknown9]: of

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[Unknown9]: internet atheists with whom i have been able to have a productive dialogue and by

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[Unknown9]: a productive dialogue i mean at the end of it i could say that if we met each

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[Unknown9]: other on the street neither one of us would

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[Unknown8]: mask it that’s good

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[Unknown9]: put up fists you know

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[Unknown9]: you know we might even be willing to buy each other a cup of coffee that kind of

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[Unknown9]: but you know the largest percentage it turns into did not did so did not did did

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[Unknown9]: so

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[Unknown9]: i think that the

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[Unknown9]: the fruit in that is really more that i’ve had several people say

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[Unknown9]: thank you for responding to this person

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[Unknown9]: and you know it’s

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[Unknown9]: it’s not that it was weakening their faith but that they didn’t know what to

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[Unknown9]: answer

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[Unknown9]: and they were concerned that no one

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[Unknown8]: even

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[Unknown9]: was answering that point

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[Unknown9]: i’ve had one or two

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[Unknown9]: and i’m going to distinguish here between atheists

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[Unknown9]: and ants an atheist

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[Unknown8]: i was gonna ask you about that

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[Unknown9]: yeah an atheist is just someone who doesn’t believe in god and antius doesn’t

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[Unknown9]: think you should either and they want it to be a law that you can’t either

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[Unknown8]: yeah

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[Unknown9]: you know or they would really like it if it was

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[Unknown9]: so you know with anti theist there’s no direct fruit they are dug in they are

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[Unknown9]: militarized

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[Unknown9]: with atheists i’ve had productive discussions once or twice and although they

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[Unknown9]: don’t seem

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[Unknown8]: museum

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[Unknown9]: to change their position they will at least say that they’ve got something

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[Unknown8]: yeah

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[Unknown9]: to think about so

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[Unknown9]: you know i’m going to say it it’s smiting the infidels online as much fun as it is

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[Unknown9]: is not really a fruitful and productive way to spend your time in general

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[Unknown8]: yes i agree with that and i appreciate your distinction between an atheist and an

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[Unknown8]: anti theist and i’ve had quite a few encounters with both i find atheists to be

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[Unknown8]: much more reasonable and rational than anti theist although i do occasionally find

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[Unknown8]: antitheft for the sake of debating i have a pretty active twitter account and from

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[Unknown8]: time to time i will follow clumps of writers and then interact with the writers

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[Unknown8]: that either message me back or follow me back and sometimes it will be people uh

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[Unknown8]: like like it says on my profile that i’m a christian i’m a pastor i’m a writer and

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[Unknown8]: and sometimes i’ll follow people that would be quite a bit of the opposite

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[Unknown8]: persuasion from that and every now and then they’ll message me and say hey why did

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[Unknown8]: you follow me was that some sort of an accident or whatever and i i say you know i

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[Unknown8]: actually like interacting with skeptics and atheists and people like that i don’t

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[Unknown8]: hate atheists i love atheists and ah you’re a writer i’m a writer i thought we

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[Unknown8]: might have some some things in common but

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[Unknown9]: s

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[Unknown8]: uh just a few days ago i got a direct message from somebody called the flux apex

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[Unknown8]: on twitter and they said and we have to censor this on the fly because it’s full

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[Unknown8]: of foul language but they said not sure what would have made you follow me but i’m

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[Unknown8]: most definitely not someone you want to be following religion is a plague in those

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[Unknown8]: who spread the disease are parasites yeah your piece of blank blank can most

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[Unknown8]: definitely blank off so and then he blocked me after that and that is a pretty

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[Unknown8]: good example of somebody who is an anti theist have you ever met in real life not

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[Unknown8]: on the internet have you met an antithesis anti god that

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[Unknown9]: you

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[Unknown8]: they don’t they’re not just an atheist they’re an evangelist for the other

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[Unknown8]: position

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[Unknown9]: um

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[Unknown9]: you know i i can’t say i can’t say for certain that i have

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[Unknown9]: um i know i have met several people who had some very serious doubts about

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[Unknown9]: christianity i i don’t think i’ve met someone in real life who didn’t want anyone

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[Unknown9]: to be a christian and thought it was a plague on humanity

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[Unknown8]: yeah and i have very very rarely met those kind of people i think

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[Unknown8]: most people who are radicals online

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[Unknown8]: cream puffs in person um and i i think there’s a bit of hypocrisy in that i and

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[Unknown8]: i’m not just talking about uh not just talking about

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[Unknown9]: school

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[Unknown8]: antithesis lumpers online but in real life they’re a little bit more of a milk

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[Unknown8]: toast and perhaps we should avoid that i want to read something from chapter ten

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[Unknown8]: of your book on caveman apologetics then we’ll move into talking about the reasons

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[Unknown8]: to believe apologetics conference that you’re talking about but i just think this

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[Unknown8]: is a really good thing

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[Unknown8]: section you wrote and you say here a large part of atheism is bad religion and

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[Unknown8]: often seems like most atheists become atheists because someone somewhere

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[Unknown8]: malpractice his religion one man who was very dismissive of christianity told me

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[Unknown8]: that as a child in nebraska he attended a methodist church where the subject of

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[Unknown8]: every sermon was the fact that the methodist minister wasn’t paid as well as the

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[Unknown8]: presbyterian minister down the street to this man religion was a business it was

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[Unknown8]: the sale of guilt you might say that people like this are inoculated against

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[Unknown8]: religion they’ve had just enough to render them immune of course we know that

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[Unknown8]: christianity is

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[Unknown9]: excuse me

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[Unknown8]: not for sale nor is it about guilt in fact true religion freezes us from guilt we

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[Unknown8]: need look no further than isaiah one eighteen to see it come let us counsel

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[Unknown8]: together sayeth the lord though your sins be a scarlett they shall be whiter than

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[Unknown8]: snow though they be red like cms and they shall be as wool i appreciate your pivot

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[Unknown8]: there moving from

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[Unknown8]: talking about people wounded by religion to the core of what religion is and that

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[Unknown8]: is grace in the gospel and and what jesus has done for us and i think you’re

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[Unknown8]: absolutely right most anti theist

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[Unknown9]: s

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[Unknown8]: don’t get there necessarily because of their philosophical beliefs now i believe

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[Unknown8]: there are you know many atheists out there who are there because of their

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[Unknown8]: philosophical beliefs but an

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[Unknown8]: um

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[Unknown8]: the i’ve seen those kind of wounding in church and probably have done some myself

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[Unknown8]: and the fact of the matter is we humans sometimes hurt each other and

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[Unknown9]: that’s

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[Unknown8]: there’s some people out there that are really wounded and i appreciate your books

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[Unknown8]: lonnie and your ministry because

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[Unknown8]: you are seeking to rationally reach hurting people and people who have questions

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[Unknown8]: so i appreciate that and along those lines why don’t you tell us about the reasons

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[Unknown8]: to believe apologetics conference that is coming up this summer with dr mike

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[Unknown8]: laconia

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[Unknown9]: um i’m i’m glad that you asked that we’re very excited about this valley baptist

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[Unknown9]: church is sponsoring this this is our first annual apologetics conference um it is

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[Unknown9]: sponsored in part by the young adults program called rock jin it is also sponsored

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[Unknown9]: in part by the youth ministry

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[Unknown9]: and what we’re hoping to do is to offer concrete reasons for belief not just my

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[Unknown9]: parents said so

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[Unknown9]: and one of the issues that has been identified in the church today

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[Unknown9]: is that quite often

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[Unknown9]: children hear the gospel they when they’re very young they accept it because their

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[Unknown9]: parents say so but then somewhere i believe one one apologist has said that the

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[Unknown9]: surveys have said between i think greg cockle said that somewhere between ten and

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[Unknown9]: seventeen many of our youth start to what they call

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[Unknown8]: h

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[Unknown9]: deconstruct or move away from the faith

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[Unknown9]: because they start to say well

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[Unknown9]: what i learn in school doesn’t match what i learn in sunday school you know in in

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[Unknown9]: school they tell me that things don’t happen this way but in sunday school this

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[Unknown9]: happens all the time this way

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[Unknown9]: something here doesn’t match and i think that that’s a struggle that many of us go

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[Unknown9]: through who were raised in the church i know i went through a struggle like that

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[Unknown9]: it’s it’s a kind of a thing that we can we can deal with

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[Unknown9]: we just need to show that there’s no conflict between christianity and science

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[Unknown9]: there is no

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[Unknown9]: there’s not really that you know to me it was if i put science in christianity in

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[Unknown9]: a steel cage death match you know it would be thunder dome one would go the two go

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[Unknown9]: in and one

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[Unknown8]: yeah

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[Unknown9]: comes out you know but no actually you know there was no conflict at all

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[Unknown9]: so i think what we’re trying to do here is show that

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[Unknown9]: well part of it we would like youth to think for themselves and not just hear

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[Unknown9]: something and say you know that makes more sense than what my sunday school

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[Unknown9]: teacher said you know it would be good if we could get people to evaluate things

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[Unknown9]: intelligently to think for themselves and then

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[Unknown9]: we really want to

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[Unknown9]: kind of put something in there that will that will give them tools to do that

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[Unknown9]: reasoning give them tools to weigh is this

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[Unknown8]: ans

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[Unknown9]: true or is this not true and as you know the apostle paul said if christianity is

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[Unknown9]: not true we are i’m paraphrasing

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[Unknown8]: hey

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[Unknown9]: here from

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[Unknown9]: first corinthians fifteen seventeen you know if if christianity is not true we are

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[Unknown9]: the most pathetic of all people

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[Unknown8]: yeah

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[Unknown9]: and so that’s that’s kind of what we’re what we’re hoping here is to to to start

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[Unknown9]: working against that and so that’s our goal here so we’re very excited about this

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[Unknown9]: and we’re hoping that will turn into something

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[Unknown8]: yeah and you got mike lacs a keynote speaker i don’t know laconia personally but i

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[Unknown8]: have several of his books um his mentor is uh dr gary habermas who taught me

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[Unknown8]: apologetics i am a huge gary habermas fan uh and uh laconia is an interesting

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[Unknown8]: guide but especially for the goal of this conference which is to show there’s not

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[Unknown8]: a there’s not a problem between science and religion it is to show the

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[Unknown8]: reasonableness of christianity

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[Unknown9]: six

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[Unknown8]: laconia is a guy who will go out there on youtube and debate atheists and debate

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[Unknown8]: skeptics and debate

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[Unknown9]: good

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[Unknown8]: people from the mormon religion and muslims and things like that and uh bart

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[Unknown8]: airman which is probably one of the best selling religion writers in the united

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[Unknown8]: states he is uh agnostic heading towards atheism but sells a lot of books for

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[Unknown8]: reasons i can’t quite fully understand but laconia will get in the ring and go toe

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[Unknown8]: to toe with pe scholars like bart airman and more than hold his own and i think

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[Unknown8]: it’s going to be a great conference and if people want to register for that they

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[Unknown8]: can go to the website

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[Unknown8]: v bc salinas dot org and there is a link there to go to the event bright to sign

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[Unknown8]: up for that i understand it’s twenty dollars a person right

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[Unknown9]: uh yes that is correct

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[Unknown9]: but

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[Unknown9]: student students who if that’s a problem students should not let that di deter

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[Unknown9]: them there are some scholarships that are available on that

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[Unknown9]: so there you know uh cost should not deter anyone from going

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[Unknown8]: okay sounds good tell us the dates one more time

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[Unknown9]: uh that is june twenty fourth through twenty sixth

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[Unknown9]: and obviously twenty twenty two

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[Unknown9]: and um that’s

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[Unknown9]: yes june twenty fourth the twenty sixth

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[Unknown8]: at valley baptist church in seles

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[Unknown8]: california which is near monterey and caramel a great place to come for a vacation

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[Unknown9]: a do baptist church yes three four

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[Unknown8]: the beach is like eight miles away it’s a good place to hang out alright so we’re

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[Unknown8]: not talking about dr leconte we’re talking about dr craig

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[Unknown8]: keen’s book on miracles and we’re talking about miracles

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[Unknown9]: six

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[Unknown9]: thank you

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[Unknown8]: specifically so now that we’ve gotten the preliminaries out of the way let’s dig

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[Unknown8]: in and go a little deeper and spend some more time on miracles we’ve already had

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[Unknown8]: dr kiner on the show

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[Unknown8]: for two episodes and we’re probably going to do today’s episode and maybe one or

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[Unknown8]: two more episodes and just have a whole block on miracles because i find it such a

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[Unknown8]: fascinating topic and the of the reasons why

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[Unknown9]: teach

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[Unknown8]: other than your prolific writing i wanted you to have you own lonnie is because to

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[Unknown8]: my understanding you set the all time world record uh speed wise on reading dr

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[Unknown8]: keener s book dr keener s scholarly book on miracles is one thousand two

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[Unknown9]: two

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[Unknown8]: hundred forty eight pages long

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[Unknown8]: it weighs almost five pounds so more than a half gallon of milk it is a deadly

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[Unknown8]: weapon in the right hands it is a thick book and

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[Unknown8]: understand you read it and what what is it two weeks

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[Unknown9]: i think i think it might have taken me about three

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[Unknown8]: okay three now

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[Unknown9]: and a half actually something like that

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[Unknown8]: still still very impressive so before we get into some of the miracle stories just

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[Unknown8]: just give me an overview what did what other than oh my gosh i’m glad i’m through

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[Unknown8]: with that search that that reading marathon what is your overall impressions of dr

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[Unknown8]: keener larger of the books he’s written on miracles

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[Unknown9]: well first he is extremely thorough

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[Unknown8]: that’s a great word for it

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[Unknown9]: i

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[Unknown9]: i was kind of um

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[Unknown9]: you know i mean he he doesn’t really repeat things but he makes his point and then

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[Unknown9]: he makes the point

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[Unknown8]: sweet

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[Unknown9]: that he made his point and then he shows you how that point ties in and then he

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[Unknown9]: sets that point aside shows you another point shows you how the two points work

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[Unknown9]: together i mean there it’s um

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[Unknown9]: i believe dr keener himself has mentioned that he has ocd and i certainly believe

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[Unknown9]: it having read the book

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[Unknown9]: the

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[Unknown9]: the the footnotes end notes bibliography and appendices are actually twice as long

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[Unknown9]: as the book proper i think the book the the whole thing altogether is like three

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[Unknown9]: thousand pages and the book proper is i think you said one thousand two

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[Unknown8]: yeah

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[Unknown9]: hundred forty eight

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[Unknown9]: um

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[Unknown9]: yeah i quickly found myself in the appendices and

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[Unknown9]: you know it’s the way that the book is organized there it’s it’s very logical but

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[Unknown9]: at the same time it does very thoroughly tie things together for example he tells

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[Unknown9]: the story some of the stories that we’re going to mention but then he also

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[Unknown9]: mentions those stories in how they relate to other topics such as can we believe

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[Unknown9]: in miracles you know should we accept the hum

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[Unknown9]: position on anti supernaturalism anti supernaturalism

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[Unknown9]: you know

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[Unknown8]: school

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[Unknown9]: things like that so it’s it’s a very yeah thorough is the best word

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[Unknown8]: yeah and i should mention he has two uh books on miracles really it’s three

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[Unknown8]: because he has miracles today which is a more approachable book of around three

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[Unknown8]: hundred or so pages that is written uh not just for scholars but for anybody

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[Unknown8]: that’s just come out a few weeks ago i highly recommended especially the audible

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[Unknown8]: edition if one thousand two hundred forty eight

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[Unknown9]: what

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[Unknown8]: pages sounds too long for you you want to get miracles today but his main work is

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[Unknown8]: miracles two volumes the credibility of the new testament accounts and that’s what

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[Unknown8]: you read lonnie and when i dr ker was on the podcast i described the book as

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[Unknown8]: relentless and i didn’t mean that in a bad way

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[Unknown8]: if i can use the metaphor of a boxer if dr

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[Unknown9]: school

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[Unknown8]: keener is in the ring with a skeptic and sharing all of these miracle stories it’s

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[Unknown8]: like one unanswered shot after another after another after another and there’s

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[Unknown8]: going to be a knockout from all of those blows because i’ve seen some skeptics

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[Unknown8]: online that will take one of the literally hundreds of miracles in dr keener s

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[Unknown8]: books and say well you know i doubt this because you know it’s just a spontaneous

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[Unknown8]: remission we know that sometimes cancer

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[Unknown8]: will have the spontaneous remission

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[Unknown9]: teach

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[Unknown8]: it doesn’t happen a lot i be dr kiner says it happens one in sixty thousand cases

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[Unknown8]: of cancer and so an atheist will say this is just simply an example of spontaneous

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[Unknown8]: remission and christians are sort of retrofitting it to be a miracle well maybe

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[Unknown8]: you can say that for a few of the accounts in the book but when i say there are

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[Unknown8]: hundreds i mean there are hundreds and there some of them are not terribly well

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[Unknown8]: documented but most of them are incredibly well documented with multiple

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[Unknown8]: attestations multiple witnesses to the point where you you get done reading them

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[Unknown8]: even the miracle sd book and and there’s just no doubt in your mind there’s no i i

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[Unknown8]: honestly don’t see how there could be doubt in a rational mind that these sorts of

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[Unknown8]: things are still happening so let’s go ahead since you’re now one of the to top

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[Unknown8]: experts in the world on dr keener book how about you share some stories with us

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[Unknown8]: tell us about the joy and i’m not gonna say her name right it’s a it’s a a

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[Unknown8]: spelling i’m not familiar with but joy wf

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[Unknown9]: yeah i w frid or want fred i’m pretty sure that one of those is probably correct

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00:22:35,950 –> 00:22:40,590
[Unknown9]: she is she was one of the ones that he mentioned by name now not all of the cases

356
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[Unknown9]: he didn’t always have permission to mention them by name and he didn’t always have

357
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[Unknown9]: permission to share all of their documentation but he does share as much as he as

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[Unknown9]: much as he has

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[Unknown9]: joy want freed

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[Unknown9]: so

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[Unknown9]: one of the key things that struck me on this one

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[Unknown9]: she um she had an eye condition which caused her vision to be offset higher in one

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[Unknown9]: eye than the other

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[Unknown9]: it’s um i

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[Unknown9]: i forget the name of it i wanna say that it’s called a vertical

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[Unknown9]: vertical dis

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[Unknown9]: dessa or vertical dysphoria

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00:23:20,830 –> 00:23:25,950
[Unknown9]: but one of the the the effect is that it gives her horrible migraine headaches and

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[Unknown9]: she has to wear very strong or she had to wear very strong corrective lenses she

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[Unknown9]: was able to drive she was able to read and function normally but she needed you

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[Unknown9]: know strong corrective lenses and she was often subject to

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[Unknown9]: uh migraines where all she could do was sit in the dark room for two or three

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[Unknown9]: weeks until they dissipated and yes we’re talking about weeks in a dark room doing

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[Unknown9]: nothing not sleeping not eating not

375
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[Unknown9]: thinking not doing anything except sitting in a dark room

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[Unknown9]: you know this happened to her at one point during her college years

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[Unknown9]: and several people came together to pray for her

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00:24:09,630 –> 00:24:16,750
[Unknown9]: she was healed of this condition and you know she she went from having in a

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[Unknown9]: condition that never gets better by itself

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[Unknown8]: did you

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[Unknown9]: to

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[Unknown9]: having normal vision normal twenty twenty vision

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[Unknown9]: one of the interesting bits of documentation on this is that the the state that

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00:24:31,230 –> 00:24:36,830
[Unknown9]: she lived in wrote to her to ask her why she no longer needed corrective lenses

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[Unknown9]: actually i think they wrote to her up her ethnologist to ask why she no longer

386
00:24:42,270 –> 00:24:46,910
[Unknown9]: needed corrective lenses because that’s not something that normally happens you

387
00:24:46,990 –> 00:24:51,550
[Unknown9]: know if the if the box is checked must use corrective lenses to drive

388
00:24:52,750 –> 00:24:56,030
[Unknown9]: you know then that’s you you must use corrective lenses

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00:24:57,550 –> 00:24:59,310
[Unknown9]: you know it’s very interesting that

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00:25:00,590 –> 00:25:06,430
[Unknown9]: you know that really shows that first there was a problem and the second there is

391
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[Unknown9]: no longer a problem

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00:25:08,270 –> 00:25:12,670
[Unknown9]: there something happened there so that’s the first conclusion that we can draw

393
00:25:12,530 –> 00:25:13,530
[Unknown9]: from that

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[Unknown9]: whether that is was caused

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[Unknown8]: felt

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[Unknown9]: supernaturally um now keener makes an interesting point on this and some others

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[Unknown9]: that he just says you know if we look at the proportion of these things that are

398
00:25:28,430 –> 00:25:32,910
[Unknown9]: reported we can say yeah sometimes people are spontaneously healed but how often

399
00:25:33,070 –> 00:25:34,750
[Unknown9]: does it happen just after prayer

400
00:25:35,870 –> 00:25:40,750
[Unknown9]: and so and that touches on something that’s called bayesian analysis and he didn’t

401
00:25:40,990 –> 00:25:45,550
[Unknown9]: go into phase theorem or anything like that and i’m not really enough of a

402
00:25:45,630 –> 00:25:46,990
[Unknown9]: mathematician to go through it

403
00:25:48,830 –> 00:25:52,750
[Unknown9]: you may know some people who do who do have that kind of background i think your

404
00:25:52,830 –> 00:25:57,390
[Unknown9]: father in law might possibly be someone that would be a resource for that but

405
00:25:57,630 –> 00:25:58,750
[Unknown9]: that’s just in passing

406
00:26:00,510 –> 00:26:05,150
[Unknown9]: one of the other cases was uh brad wilkinson and this was a

407
00:26:03,360 –> 00:26:08,960
[Unknown8]: yeah brad wilkinson is is interesting a lot of the healings that that you hear

408
00:26:08,980 –> 00:26:09,980
[Unknown8]: about you wonder

409
00:26:10,800 –> 00:26:12,960
[Unknown8]: skeptics wonder is there some sort of

410
00:26:13,120 –> 00:26:18,480
[Unknown8]: psychosomatic element to this is it like the placebo effect in other words but

411
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[Unknown9]: and

412
00:26:19,120 –> 00:26:23,680
[Unknown8]: brad’s case is really interesting he is an eight year old kid with two holes in

413
00:26:23,380 –> 00:26:24,380
[Unknown8]: his heart

414
00:26:23,730 –> 00:26:24,730
[Unknown9]: i he

415
00:26:24,240 –> 00:26:31,840
[Unknown8]: he’s gonna have surgery and his dad is a is he a psychologist he’s a neuro psycho

416
00:26:32,000 –> 00:26:39,120
[Unknown8]: something his dad is is a very advanced uh medical doctor of some kind he’s a

417
00:26:39,120 –> 00:26:40,560
[Unknown8]: neuropsychologist and

418
00:26:41,840 –> 00:26:47,440
[Unknown8]: a bit of a skeptic and a christian but a bit of a skeptic and i the thing that

419
00:26:47,520 –> 00:26:50,240
[Unknown8]: struck me about this story is the son the eight year old

420
00:26:51,280 –> 00:26:54,560
[Unknown8]: leading into this to this surgery asks his dad

421
00:26:55,680 –> 00:27:02,720
[Unknown8]: can god heal me and b uh his dad ed’s first answer is i’ll get back to you on that

422
00:27:03,440 –> 00:27:09,040
[Unknown8]: and and then he says he thinks about it for a while then he says well god can heal

423
00:27:09,060 –> 00:27:10,060
[Unknown8]: you but

424
00:27:09,810 –> 00:27:10,810
[Unknown9]: trying to think

425
00:27:10,080 –> 00:27:15,680
[Unknown8]: even if he doesn’t you know we have hope in heaven so this is not the kind of

426
00:27:15,920 –> 00:27:20,640
[Unknown8]: setting where you would expect any sort of psychosomatic placebo effect kind of

427
00:27:20,720 –> 00:27:23,280
[Unknown8]: thing to happen all right you take over the story of brad

428
00:27:24,690 –> 00:27:25,690
[Unknown9]: well

429
00:27:26,350 –> 00:27:30,430
[Unknown9]: and that was a good summary and dr keener even mentions that

430
00:27:31,870 –> 00:27:37,150
[Unknown9]: as as the time drew nearer for the surgery i believe the surgery happened in june

431
00:27:37,310 –> 00:27:41,390
[Unknown9]: of uh or was scheduled in june of nineteen eighty five

432
00:27:42,510 –> 00:27:45,870
[Unknown9]: so this is not something that happened and this happened in north america this is

433
00:27:45,950 –> 00:27:50,910
[Unknown9]: not something that happened you know a vague story out of china you know in the

434
00:27:51,230 –> 00:27:53,390
[Unknown9]: nineteen hundred in the eighteen hundreds or something

435
00:27:54,430 –> 00:27:58,190
[Unknown9]: this happened in america in the twenty first cent or in the twentieth century

436
00:28:00,590 –> 00:28:04,590
[Unknown9]: the the boy began giving away some of his some of his possessions his favorite

437
00:28:04,660 –> 00:28:05,660
[Unknown8]: well

438
00:28:04,910 –> 00:28:09,710
[Unknown9]: toys and things like that and typically that is a sign of someone who doesn’t

439
00:28:09,790 –> 00:28:10,990
[Unknown9]: expect to live much longer

440
00:28:10,320 –> 00:28:11,520
[Unknown8]: right eight year old kid

441
00:28:12,030 –> 00:28:18,430
[Unknown9]: and so he was very much aware that he could die and i think he truly expected to

442
00:28:18,510 –> 00:28:22,590
[Unknown9]: die or you know that that this was the most likely outcome

443
00:28:23,630 –> 00:28:26,910
[Unknown9]: there was certainly a dangerous surgery it was a six hour surgery that was

444
00:28:26,730 –> 00:28:27,730
[Unknown9]: scheduled

445
00:28:28,830 –> 00:28:34,990
[Unknown9]: the he had been to a miracle healer a a healing service he had prayed to be healed

446
00:28:36,990 –> 00:28:42,430
[Unknown9]: a few days later they went in for the surgery the night before they did tests and

447
00:28:42,130 –> 00:28:43,130
[Unknown9]: the condition

448
00:28:42,580 –> 00:28:43,580
[Unknown8]: yes

449
00:28:43,070 –> 00:28:48,990
[Unknown9]: was still there so he was not miraculously healed up until then so they thought

450
00:28:49,230 –> 00:28:54,190
[Unknown9]: okay we are definitely going to have to do this surgery and so this is a case

451
00:28:54,350 –> 00:28:56,110
[Unknown9]: where no one is expecting a miracle

452
00:28:57,470 –> 00:29:01,950
[Unknown9]: you know the father is sitting there thinking my son could die tomorrow or my son

453
00:29:02,110 –> 00:29:05,710
[Unknown9]: is going to be in surgery a long time and i don’t know what’s going to happen

454
00:29:07,790 –> 00:29:10,030
[Unknown9]: the next day he goes into the surgery

455
00:29:11,230 –> 00:29:15,470
[Unknown9]: the the doctor comes back the surgeon comes back in about an hour and this is

456
00:29:15,550 –> 00:29:20,590
[Unknown9]: supposed to be a six hour surgery he has the hospital risk management officer with

457
00:29:20,750 –> 00:29:22,750
[Unknown9]: him and that’s always a

458
00:29:22,660 –> 00:29:23,660
[Unknown8]: yes it is

459
00:29:22,830 –> 00:29:26,510
[Unknown9]: peculiar sign you know that’s you know if anything’s going to make you nervous

460
00:29:26,670 –> 00:29:30,990
[Unknown9]: those two things you know why aren’t you operating on my son and why are you

461
00:29:31,070 –> 00:29:32,510
[Unknown9]: worried about risk management

462
00:29:34,030 –> 00:29:38,190
[Unknown9]: and it turns out they were concerned that he might think it was malpractice so

463
00:29:38,270 –> 00:29:44,670
[Unknown9]: they showed him the films side by side of the night before and there are the holes

464
00:29:44,750 –> 00:29:49,070
[Unknown9]: in the sun’s heart and the day of the surgery the films that they had taken that

465
00:29:49,210 –> 00:29:50,210
[Unknown9]: show that it has

466
00:29:49,940 –> 00:29:50,940
[Unknown8]: one

467
00:29:50,350 –> 00:29:54,270
[Unknown9]: healed and it is completely filled there is nothing there

468
00:29:53,860 –> 00:29:54,860
[Unknown8]: i

469
00:29:55,710 –> 00:29:56,990
[Unknown9]: um this may

470
00:29:58,030 –> 00:30:02,030
[Unknown9]: that this particular condition the whole i believe it’s a whole between the two

471
00:30:02,350 –> 00:30:03,550
[Unknown9]: ventricles of the heart

472
00:30:04,910 –> 00:30:09,230
[Unknown9]: this kind of condition can spontaneously heal in infants

473
00:30:10,350 –> 00:30:15,470
[Unknown9]: you know and we’re talking two or three days old it can heal there are cases where

474
00:30:15,630 –> 00:30:18,190
[Unknown9]: that has happened but never in an eight year old

475
00:30:19,310 –> 00:30:20,510
[Unknown9]: and never overnight

476
00:30:22,430 –> 00:30:25,310
[Unknown9]: you know it’s just it’s simply unheard of um

477
00:30:25,780 –> 00:30:26,780
[Unknown8]: what

478
00:30:26,190 –> 00:30:31,470
[Unknown9]: you know there are some some kind of funny aspects to that story as well like the

479
00:30:31,550 –> 00:30:36,830
[Unknown9]: baseball game that he was in a few days later the boy made an outstanding catch

480
00:30:37,390 –> 00:30:41,390
[Unknown9]: and a father from the other team said wow that was a miracle and

481
00:30:42,670 –> 00:30:44,510
[Unknown9]: sitting there thinking you have no

482
00:30:44,340 –> 00:30:45,340
[Unknown8]: yeah

483
00:30:44,450 –> 00:30:45,450
[Unknown9]: idea

484
00:30:45,970 –> 00:30:46,970
[Unknown9]: so

485
00:30:47,710 –> 00:30:52,430
[Unknown9]: you know i mean that’s and that’s a very well documented medically documented case

486
00:30:53,150 –> 00:30:58,670
[Unknown9]: where you know something happened that we have no explanation for

487
00:31:00,110 –> 00:31:04,030
[Unknown9]: so a miracle did happen in that it’s something we can’t explain

488
00:31:05,390 –> 00:31:07,550
[Unknown9]: you know was god the cause of that

489
00:31:08,590 –> 00:31:13,390
[Unknown9]: and that’s a question that keener is not exactly addressing directly in the first

490
00:31:14,130 –> 00:31:15,130
[Unknown9]: part of the book

491
00:31:16,030 –> 00:31:17,070
[Unknown9]: that’s not his first point

492
00:31:18,210 –> 00:31:19,210
[Unknown9]: so you know

493
00:31:20,190 –> 00:31:23,390
[Unknown9]: that’s just one to think about the couple others very quickly

494
00:31:24,370 –> 00:31:25,370
[Unknown9]: um

495
00:31:26,110 –> 00:31:30,270
[Unknown9]: the one that struck me was when he mentioned the the uh dwayne miller

496
00:31:31,630 –> 00:31:36,350
[Unknown9]: story and this is one i know that you have preached on this and you have actually

497
00:31:36,210 –> 00:31:37,210
[Unknown9]: played

498
00:31:36,580 –> 00:31:37,580
[Unknown8]: yes

499
00:31:36,990 –> 00:31:38,830
[Unknown9]: this recording during the sermon

500
00:31:40,190 –> 00:31:42,990
[Unknown9]: there is a recording of dwayne miller being healed

501
00:31:44,290 –> 00:31:45,290
[Unknown9]: he is

502
00:31:46,190 –> 00:31:51,390
[Unknown9]: he was a pastor he had a throat infection that caused him to completely lose his

503
00:31:51,130 –> 00:31:52,130
[Unknown9]: voice

504
00:31:52,990 –> 00:31:58,430
[Unknown9]: the the i want to call it a miler sheath but i don’t that doesn’t sound right i’m

505
00:31:57,040 –> 00:32:01,200
[Unknown8]: it was it was something along those lines and he lost his voice for years he had

506
00:31:58,050 –> 00:31:59,050
[Unknown9]: not a

507
00:32:01,360 –> 00:32:03,120
[Unknown8]: to stop being a pastor

508
00:32:05,150 –> 00:32:09,790
[Unknown9]: absolutely and he could barely speak above a whisper so at the beginning of the

509
00:32:09,870 –> 00:32:14,030
[Unknown9]: recording you hear him gasping and whispering into a microphone

510
00:32:13,700 –> 00:32:14,700
[Unknown8]: yes

511
00:32:14,610 –> 00:32:15,610
[Unknown9]: the

512
00:32:16,670 –> 00:32:19,470
[Unknown9]: the class had generously invited him to speak

513
00:32:19,120 –> 00:32:20,800
[Unknown8]: yeah he’s teaching he’s teaching a

514
00:32:20,370 –> 00:32:21,370
[Unknown9]: even

515
00:32:20,800 –> 00:32:25,440
[Unknown8]: sunday school class and it sounds like somebody kind of took pity on him because

516
00:32:25,900 –> 00:32:26,900
[Unknown8]: you know he’d been a pastor

517
00:32:26,880 –> 00:32:30,560
[Unknown8]: for years and and and he couldn’t do it anymore so they’re like hey can you you

518
00:32:26,890 –> 00:32:27,890
[Unknown9]: you see

519
00:32:30,880 –> 00:32:34,560
[Unknown8]: know substitute teach for our sunday school class and initially he was like yeah

520
00:32:34,640 –> 00:32:39,200
[Unknown8]: no i’m not gonna do that i can’t even talk but then he finally decided to it and

521
00:32:39,200 –> 00:32:40,480
[Unknown8]: he carry out k keep going

522
00:32:42,510 –> 00:32:44,910
[Unknown9]: and and he talked about the fact that he had

523
00:32:45,950 –> 00:32:51,230
[Unknown9]: this isn’t mentioned in dr kenner’s book but on his website it does mention this

524
00:32:51,710 –> 00:32:56,670
[Unknown9]: uh that’s new voice org and you can hear the recording on there new voice org

525
00:32:57,230 –> 00:32:59,310
[Unknown9]: about us new voices spelled in you

526
00:33:01,710 –> 00:33:07,230
[Unknown9]: and he talks about how he had he had considered suicide he had actually uh gotten

527
00:33:07,230 –> 00:33:11,710
[Unknown9]: to the point of having a loaded gun and pointing it at his head and not

528
00:33:12,910 –> 00:33:14,510
[Unknown9]: deciding to kill himself but

529
00:33:14,180 –> 00:33:15,180
[Unknown8]: yeah

530
00:33:14,490 –> 00:33:15,490
[Unknown9]: thinking about it

531
00:33:17,310 –> 00:33:21,470
[Unknown9]: but on this recording you hear him at the beginning he he is gasping he is

532
00:33:21,790 –> 00:33:25,550
[Unknown9]: literally whispering into a microphone order for people to be

533
00:33:25,220 –> 00:33:26,220
[Unknown8]: school

534
00:33:25,630 –> 00:33:31,470
[Unknown9]: able to hear what he’s saying and his his voice just sounds raspy and horrible and

535
00:33:31,550 –> 00:33:35,150
[Unknown9]: then at a certain point where he’s talking about god lifting him out of you know

536
00:33:35,230 –> 00:33:41,870
[Unknown9]: god lifting the salm out of the pit as he says the word pit um what dwayne said

537
00:33:42,110 –> 00:33:44,590
[Unknown9]: was that it was like a hand released his throat

538
00:33:45,790 –> 00:33:49,710
[Unknown9]: and he said all of a sudden he began to speak normally and you hear

539
00:33:50,750 –> 00:33:52,430
[Unknown9]: a reaction in the background

540
00:33:53,950 –> 00:33:58,190
[Unknown9]: i did present this this the audio clip to and to a

541
00:34:00,670 –> 00:34:04,510
[Unknown9]: i would say the person was somewhere between being an atheist and an atheist but

542
00:34:04,510 –> 00:34:08,990
[Unknown9]: it was a person that i was discussing this with online with discussing the subject

543
00:34:09,230 –> 00:34:10,270
[Unknown9]: of miracles in particular

544
00:34:11,310 –> 00:34:15,230
[Unknown9]: and he said well you know anyone could make their voice sound like that and then

545
00:34:15,310 –> 00:34:18,110
[Unknown9]: suddenly start talking normally you know this could be faked

546
00:34:19,230 –> 00:34:23,550
[Unknown9]: the problem with that is you hear the reaction of the people behind him the people

547
00:34:23,870 –> 00:34:28,030
[Unknown9]: around him and i don’t know how big this class was i have the impression that it

548
00:34:27,770 –> 00:34:28,770
[Unknown9]: was a hundred

549
00:34:28,250 –> 00:34:29,250
[Unknown9]: or more people

550
00:34:28,260 –> 00:34:29,260
[Unknown8]: yeah yeah

551
00:34:31,150 –> 00:34:37,310
[Unknown9]: but it just you know you hear people start to like a nervous chuckle like

552
00:34:38,670 –> 00:34:43,310
[Unknown9]: you know and then there’s like you know people are kind of hey what happened there

553
00:34:43,470 –> 00:34:48,270
[Unknown9]: what’s going on and then by the point where he says i don’t know what’s going on

554
00:34:48,430 –> 00:34:50,670
[Unknown9]: right there people are just full out cheering

555
00:34:52,290 –> 00:34:53,290
[Unknown9]: so

556
00:34:53,490 –> 00:34:54,490
[Unknown9]: you know

557
00:34:55,470 –> 00:34:57,950
[Unknown9]: he says that he had been to sixty three doctors

558
00:34:59,230 –> 00:35:05,470
[Unknown9]: you know this is this is twain miller’s statement but you know for all ways means

559
00:35:05,550 –> 00:35:10,430
[Unknown9]: and purposes that is about as well documented as a miracle can be i mean you can

560
00:35:10,570 –> 00:35:11,570
[Unknown9]: literally hear it happen

561
00:35:12,830 –> 00:35:17,550
[Unknown9]: you can hear the reactions of people who are hearing it happen now we don’t know

562
00:35:17,710 –> 00:35:20,510
[Unknown9]: dwayne miller we i don’t know him personally i don’t

563
00:35:20,380 –> 00:35:21,380
[Unknown8]: i don’t know

564
00:35:20,590 –> 00:35:23,390
[Unknown9]: know if you do but i assume you don’t

565
00:35:24,590 –> 00:35:29,230
[Unknown9]: but the people who were listening to him did know him personally they knew that he

566
00:35:29,390 –> 00:35:32,190
[Unknown9]: had this condition they knew that he was healed of this condition

567
00:35:32,100 –> 00:35:33,100
[Unknown8]: sure

568
00:35:33,310 –> 00:35:37,230
[Unknown9]: if they thought he was putting on a show they would not be reacting like that

569
00:35:36,900 –> 00:35:37,900
[Unknown8]: yeah

570
00:35:38,110 –> 00:35:41,310
[Unknown9]: so we can make a very strong inference based on their reaction

571
00:35:44,110 –> 00:35:48,270
[Unknown9]: and you know that’s that’s another case that is mentioned in the book there

572
00:35:49,310 –> 00:35:53,150
[Unknown9]: there’s a fourth case i wanted to mention and that is a woman who is identified as

573
00:35:53,230 –> 00:36:00,030
[Unknown9]: barbara now dr keener and another man used to go to rest home a particular rest

574
00:36:00,110 –> 00:36:01,470
[Unknown9]: home and conduct services there

575
00:36:02,910 –> 00:36:05,390
[Unknown9]: it was a retirement home i rest home

576
00:36:06,510 –> 00:36:09,790
[Unknown9]: you know basically elderly and partially disabled

577
00:36:10,910 –> 00:36:13,870
[Unknown9]: adults would in a group setting

578
00:36:15,130 –> 00:36:16,130
[Unknown9]: and they would have these

579
00:36:15,980 –> 00:36:16,980
[Unknown8]: christmas

580
00:36:16,190 –> 00:36:20,110
[Unknown9]: bible studies there was one lady named barbara who was confined to a wheelchair

581
00:36:20,190 –> 00:36:25,150
[Unknown9]: she could not walk and she often lamented the fact that she could not walk oh i

582
00:36:25,150 –> 00:36:31,230
[Unknown9]: wish i could walk if only i could walk and one day the other man not dr keener but

583
00:36:31,310 –> 00:36:35,630
[Unknown9]: the other man who was there walked over to her took her by the hand and said in

584
00:36:35,710 –> 00:36:36,830
[Unknown9]: the name of jesus get

585
00:36:36,500 –> 00:36:37,500
[Unknown8]: hey

586
00:36:36,650 –> 00:36:37,650
[Unknown9]: up and walk

587
00:36:38,570 –> 00:36:39,570
[Unknown9]: and he

588
00:36:40,430 –> 00:36:44,030
[Unknown9]: pulled her by the hand she got up out of the wheelchair and she walked with him

589
00:36:43,780 –> 00:36:44,780
[Unknown8]: school

590
00:36:44,050 –> 00:36:45,050
[Unknown9]: around the room

591
00:36:47,230 –> 00:36:50,270
[Unknown9]: could that be psychosomatic well maybe

592
00:36:50,850 –> 00:36:51,850
[Unknown9]: but

593
00:36:53,070 –> 00:36:57,390
[Unknown9]: you know she had been in that wheelchair for years her legs would have atrophied

594
00:36:57,470 –> 00:37:02,190
[Unknown9]: her legs would not have had the strength to carry her and she never went back to a

595
00:37:02,270 –> 00:37:07,710
[Unknown9]: wheelchair again so long as do keener was conducting those services on a regular

596
00:37:07,450 –> 00:37:08,450
[Unknown9]: basis

597
00:37:09,230 –> 00:37:10,590
[Unknown9]: so’s that is another

598
00:37:12,110 –> 00:37:16,270
[Unknown9]: it’s another case where you’re kinda at a loss to explain it medically

599
00:37:17,870 –> 00:37:22,110
[Unknown9]: you’re at a loss to explain it any other way than a supernatural intervention

600
00:37:22,690 –> 00:37:23,690
[Unknown9]: now

601
00:37:24,350 –> 00:37:28,670
[Unknown9]: you know that does kind of beg the question but i think that’s a reasonable

602
00:37:28,830 –> 00:37:35,310
[Unknown9]: inference based on the evidence the actual events as they happen and what people

603
00:37:35,550 –> 00:37:36,910
[Unknown9]: saw what people witnessed

604
00:37:37,840 –> 00:37:41,840
[Unknown8]: well this is a good place to shift gears away from the stories and more into the

605
00:37:41,920 –> 00:37:43,440
[Unknown8]: implications of the stories the

606
00:37:43,600 –> 00:37:48,880
[Unknown8]: theology of miracles and i can’t emphasize this enough if you’ve never read either

607
00:37:43,770 –> 00:37:44,770
[Unknown9]: what else is your favorite

608
00:37:49,120 –> 00:37:51,920
[Unknown8]: one of dr kenner’s books you should and

609
00:37:53,600 –> 00:37:57,200
[Unknown8]: i’m not just trying to sell books for him the you know i i only until

610
00:37:56,930 –> 00:37:57,930
[Unknown9]: right

611
00:37:57,520 –> 00:38:02,880
[Unknown8]: uh i i’ve known of dr kiner for a couple of decades now well since the ‘ ninety

612
00:38:02,880 –> 00:38:06,240
[Unknown8]: seconds so a little bit longer than that i have a great deal of respect for him i

613
00:38:06,320 –> 00:38:10,480
[Unknown8]: don’t get any any royalties or any kickbacks or anything like that but uh these

614
00:38:10,560 –> 00:38:14,800
[Unknown8]: books are just fascinating because they’re such well documented miracle stories

615
00:38:14,500 –> 00:38:15,500
[Unknown8]: but

616
00:38:16,160 –> 00:38:20,560
[Unknown8]: beyond just having a bunch of story upon story upon testimony upon

617
00:38:21,680 –> 00:38:27,680
[Unknown8]: doctors attestation et cetera what does it mean like okay we got a lot of stories

618
00:38:27,920 –> 00:38:34,400
[Unknown8]: of fascinating things happening what are we supposed to do with these stories and

619
00:38:34,640 –> 00:38:38,720
[Unknown8]: i know dr keener answers those questions in his book but i’ll throw it to you

620
00:38:38,880 –> 00:38:43,120
[Unknown8]: lonnie what are the implications of all of these miracle stories i guess let’s

621
00:38:42,940 –> 00:38:43,940
[Unknown8]: start this way

622
00:38:45,040 –> 00:38:51,840
[Unknown8]: dr dr david hume a scottish theo well i would call him more of a philosopher than

623
00:38:51,900 –> 00:38:52,900
[Unknown8]: a theologian um

624
00:38:52,930 –> 00:38:53,930
[Unknown9]: great

625
00:38:53,520 –> 00:38:59,280
[Unknown8]: he formulated what is kind of the gold standard argument against miracles

626
00:39:00,160 –> 00:39:05,600
[Unknown8]: basically it has two planks one that sort of miracles are a violation of nature

627
00:39:05,920 –> 00:39:10,480
[Unknown8]: therefore they won’t happen and the other is i’ve never personally seen a a

628
00:39:10,560 –> 00:39:14,480
[Unknown8]: miracle like his talked about in the bible so therefore miracles are impossible

629
00:39:14,640 –> 00:39:18,960
[Unknown8]: it’s it’s a very famous argument against miracles and

630
00:39:20,160 –> 00:39:26,960
[Unknown8]: look i think there are some really smart really sharp skeptics out there there are

631
00:39:27,200 –> 00:39:31,040
[Unknown8]: some people that that make arguments against

632
00:39:32,480 –> 00:39:37,680
[Unknown8]: in a skeptical way that are pretty powerful arguments i just happen to consider

633
00:39:37,650 –> 00:39:38,650
[Unknown9]: you

634
00:39:38,400 –> 00:39:43,200
[Unknown8]: david hume’s argument against miracles one of the single most overrated

635
00:39:43,680 –> 00:39:49,760
[Unknown8]: philosophical arguments of all time maybe that’s because of my presupposition i

636
00:39:49,840 –> 00:39:53,440
[Unknown8]: don’t know i just don’t think it’s a very good argument so i guess my first

637
00:39:53,520 –> 00:40:00,240
[Unknown8]: question to you lonnie is how does dr keener book and his testimonies and his

638
00:40:00,320 –> 00:40:01,520
[Unknown8]: theology sort of

639
00:40:02,700 –> 00:40:03,700
[Unknown8]: interact with

640
00:40:03,890 –> 00:40:04,890
[Unknown9]: just

641
00:40:04,160 –> 00:40:06,800
[Unknown8]: david hume’s argument against miracles

642
00:40:08,910 –> 00:40:14,430
[Unknown9]: well he he actually talks quite a bit about uh dr about david hum he

643
00:40:15,890 –> 00:40:16,890
[Unknown9]: i would say

644
00:40:18,510 –> 00:40:23,630
[Unknown9]: probably half of the material up to about page five hundred six hundred

645
00:40:24,690 –> 00:40:25,690
[Unknown9]: in some way

646
00:40:25,300 –> 00:40:26,300
[Unknown8]: yeah

647
00:40:25,630 –> 00:40:31,390
[Unknown9]: relates to him and the first thing that he does is he actually attacks the second

648
00:40:31,630 –> 00:40:37,150
[Unknown9]: plank and he knocks out the idea that we never see miracles happen therefore

649
00:40:37,220 –> 00:40:38,220
[Unknown8]: right

650
00:40:37,290 –> 00:40:38,290
[Unknown9]: miracles don’t happen

651
00:40:40,110 –> 00:40:43,630
[Unknown9]: and you could call that an inductive argument against miracles and

652
00:40:44,750 –> 00:40:48,990
[Unknown9]: first of all inductive arguments are necessarily flawed there’s there’s a problem

653
00:40:49,070 –> 00:40:50,590
[Unknown9]: in them they’re based on

654
00:40:51,630 –> 00:40:55,070
[Unknown9]: what we observe from what we observe we draw a conclusion

655
00:40:56,110 –> 00:40:59,470
[Unknown9]: birch and russell pointed out the chicken that always concludes that some other

656
00:40:59,630 –> 00:41:04,670
[Unknown9]: chicken would get picked for dinner you know that’s that’s obviously true up until

657
00:41:04,450 –> 00:41:05,450
[Unknown9]: the day

658
00:41:04,780 –> 00:41:05,780
[Unknown8]: exactly

659
00:41:05,050 –> 00:41:06,050
[Unknown9]: that it isn’t true

660
00:41:07,950 –> 00:41:13,470
[Unknown9]: so you know an inductive argument is not necessarily true that’s the first problem

661
00:41:13,790 –> 00:41:16,270
[Unknown9]: the second problem is we do have many

662
00:41:17,390 –> 00:41:22,430
[Unknown9]: cases many events many miracles that happen around ro us so we can’t say oh

663
00:41:22,590 –> 00:41:26,910
[Unknown9]: miracles never happen therefore miracles never happen because among other things

664
00:41:27,070 –> 00:41:32,510
[Unknown9]: that’s a circular argument um the other point there is that when you put the two

665
00:41:32,750 –> 00:41:36,750
[Unknown9]: together you actually get what’s called a no true scotsman which is an odd thing

666
00:41:36,830 –> 00:41:38,590
[Unknown9]: for an argument made by a scotsman

667
00:41:37,760 –> 00:41:38,800
[Unknown8]: somewhat ironic

668
00:41:39,170 –> 00:41:40,170
[Unknown9]: and

669
00:41:40,830 –> 00:41:44,350
[Unknown9]: in a in the in the no true scotsman what you keep doing

670
00:41:45,630 –> 00:41:50,510
[Unknown9]: like someone will say well the classic example no true scotsman doesn’t like

671
00:41:50,330 –> 00:41:51,330
[Unknown9]: hoggs

672
00:41:50,500 –> 00:41:51,500
[Unknown8]: yes

673
00:41:52,430 –> 00:41:56,430
[Unknown9]: and so you you find a scotsman who doesn’t like hoggs and you say here here is

674
00:41:56,510 –> 00:42:02,510
[Unknown9]: duncan duncan doesn’t like haggas well duncan isn’t a true scotsman because he

675
00:42:02,590 –> 00:42:05,790
[Unknown9]: doesn’t like hoggs therefore no true scotsman doesn’t

676
00:42:05,380 –> 00:42:06,380
[Unknown8]: yes

677
00:42:05,650 –> 00:42:06,650
[Unknown9]: like hoggs

678
00:42:07,790 –> 00:42:10,430
[Unknown9]: or hags i i’m not sure if it’s hags or

679
00:42:10,430 –> 00:42:11,950
[Unknown9]: hoggs any either way it’s

680
00:42:10,560 –> 00:42:11,600
[Unknown8]: tomato tomato

681
00:42:13,630 –> 00:42:15,390
[Unknown9]: right exactly either way

682
00:42:16,830 –> 00:42:20,110
[Unknown9]: you know you have any case that is presented any specific example

683
00:42:21,310 –> 00:42:24,990
[Unknown9]: is dismissed as by shifting by shifting

684
00:42:26,110 –> 00:42:31,230
[Unknown9]: the definition you know you exclude duncan from the definition and then you say

685
00:42:31,710 –> 00:42:34,830
[Unknown9]: this definition that does not include duncan is

686
00:42:36,030 –> 00:42:40,590
[Unknown9]: the group of people who all like hoggs and are true scotsman so no true scotsman

687
00:42:40,720 –> 00:42:47,120
[Unknown8]: yeah absolutely so what you’re saying is that david hume who is himself a scotsman

688
00:42:40,730 –> 00:42:41,730
[Unknown9]: doesn’t like hoggs

689
00:42:47,520 –> 00:42:48,800
[Unknown8]: and himself a logician

690
00:42:48,370 –> 00:42:49,370
[Unknown9]: one

691
00:42:48,960 –> 00:42:55,360
[Unknown8]: and himself a philosopher gives us in his anti miracles argument an excellent

692
00:42:55,300 –> 00:42:56,300
[Unknown8]: example

693
00:42:56,960 –> 00:43:02,560
[Unknown8]: of the informal logical fallacy which is known as the no true scotsman fallacy so

694
00:43:02,640 –> 00:43:03,920
[Unknown8]: keep going well done so far

695
00:43:05,330 –> 00:43:06,330
[Unknown9]: well

696
00:43:07,470 –> 00:43:12,510
[Unknown9]: his form of it is you know there are no miracles and if you say well this is a

697
00:43:12,510 –> 00:43:15,630
[Unknown9]: miracle then he’ll say well that’s not a miracle because there are

698
00:43:15,710 –> 00:43:23,070
[Unknown9]: no true miracles so he’s excluding that by using his rule and his excluding that

699
00:43:15,760 –> 00:43:16,880
[Unknown8]: yes very circular

700
00:43:22,740 –> 00:43:23,740
[Unknown8]: yeah

701
00:43:23,130 –> 00:43:24,130
[Unknown9]: proves his rule

702
00:43:25,070 –> 00:43:30,110
[Unknown9]: so it’s it’s both a circular argument in that its conclusion its premises its

703
00:43:30,190 –> 00:43:35,630
[Unknown9]: conclusion and it’s also a not true scotsman with regard to so

704
00:43:35,940 –> 00:43:36,940
[Unknown8]: yes

705
00:43:36,450 –> 00:43:37,450
[Unknown9]: in short

706
00:43:39,230 –> 00:43:41,950
[Unknown9]: dr keener really takes david

707
00:43:42,030 –> 00:43:47,870
[Unknown9]: hume to task and uh i he i would say that he very thoroughly eviscerate him uh

708
00:43:42,060 –> 00:43:43,060
[Unknown8]: eviscerate him

709
00:43:48,750 –> 00:43:52,110
[Unknown9]: with regard to the anti supernatural assumption now

710
00:43:53,710 –> 00:43:58,270
[Unknown9]: the other thing is if you you know if you necessarily assume nothing supernatural

711
00:43:58,350 –> 00:44:02,750
[Unknown9]: ever happens well that’s that puts us back on the same mill there so we could go

712
00:44:02,830 –> 00:44:08,110
[Unknown9]: in a circle so he makes that’s his primary point is that david hume was just

713
00:44:08,130 –> 00:44:09,130
[Unknown9]: completely wrong

714
00:44:10,030 –> 00:44:14,830
[Unknown9]: he makes as a secondary point that it is a reasonable inference from these things

715
00:44:15,390 –> 00:44:17,950
[Unknown9]: especially based on the fact that they happen after prayer

716
00:44:17,740 –> 00:44:18,740
[Unknown8]: sorry

717
00:44:18,030 –> 00:44:24,910
[Unknown9]: in many cases that these miracles are acts of god and by their very nature imply

718
00:44:25,050 –> 00:44:26,050
[Unknown9]: the existence of god

719
00:44:28,320 –> 00:44:30,800
[Unknown8]: yeah and so so basically what

720
00:44:30,610 –> 00:44:31,610
[Unknown9]: so

721
00:44:31,360 –> 00:44:34,400
[Unknown8]: keener works do is they take

722
00:44:36,240 –> 00:44:40,480
[Unknown8]: as sort of foundation an anti miracles argument which says

723
00:44:41,760 –> 00:44:43,520
[Unknown8]: miracles are impossible and

724
00:44:44,560 –> 00:44:49,840
[Unknown8]: there’s no credible testimony of any miracles and it’s basically like dr cre kiner

725
00:44:50,000 –> 00:44:55,600
[Unknown8]: says okay here is a thousand you know roughly i don’t know how many he records

726
00:44:55,760 –> 00:45:01,280
[Unknown8]: exactly it’s a time maybe not quite a thousand hundreds here are hundreds of well

727
00:45:01,600 –> 00:45:04,160
[Unknown8]: attested well documented

728
00:45:04,400 –> 00:45:08,800
[Unknown8]: miracles now what do you have to say to that and i’ve seen some skeptics wrestle

729
00:45:04,450 –> 00:45:05,450
[Unknown9]: so

730
00:45:08,880 –> 00:45:12,960
[Unknown8]: with it a little bit i’ve seen them disprove this one or that one but honestly

731
00:45:13,600 –> 00:45:16,560
[Unknown8]: it’s it’s such an overwhelming

732
00:45:18,160 –> 00:45:23,680
[Unknown8]: charge it’s like it’s like three or four skeptics in a small fort surrounded by an

733
00:45:23,760 –> 00:45:28,000
[Unknown8]: army of eight or nine hundred people they’re going to get overwhelmed because

734
00:45:28,480 –> 00:45:33,760
[Unknown8]: kenner’s work is just so thorough and kiner work is not merely so thorough because

735
00:45:34,000 –> 00:45:35,040
[Unknown8]: he’s a great scholar

736
00:45:34,610 –> 00:45:35,610
[Unknown9]: what

737
00:45:35,120 –> 00:45:37,680
[Unknown8]: which he is but it’s so thorough because

738
00:45:38,800 –> 00:45:43,920
[Unknown8]: there are so many miracle testimonies out there and the fact of the matter is he

739
00:45:43,920 –> 00:45:49,200
[Unknown8]: hasn’t recorded all of them he has barely even scratched the surface of them and

740
00:45:49,280 –> 00:45:53,920
[Unknown8]: so getting past hume into the last thing you said lonnie what

741
00:45:53,970 –> 00:45:54,970
[Unknown9]: season

742
00:45:54,880 –> 00:46:00,080
[Unknown8]: does this voluminous amount of miracles infer for us

743
00:46:03,310 –> 00:46:04,430
[Unknown9]: well you know

744
00:46:05,710 –> 00:46:09,950
[Unknown9]: the thing is and kiner says this himself not all of these are going to be credible

745
00:46:09,650 –> 00:46:10,650
[Unknown9]: even though

746
00:46:10,020 –> 00:46:11,020
[Unknown8]: yes

747
00:46:10,350 –> 00:46:12,030
[Unknown9]: they’re documented they’re you know

748
00:46:13,630 –> 00:46:18,110
[Unknown9]: it may be that we find that some of these are not true miracles in that case it

749
00:46:18,270 –> 00:46:20,990
[Unknown9]: does nothing against our case as christians

750
00:46:22,030 –> 00:46:28,270
[Unknown9]: but if even one of these is a true miracle then even that one by its nature

751
00:46:29,230 –> 00:46:33,230
[Unknown9]: implies the existence of god and implies that we’re not

752
00:46:33,380 –> 00:46:34,380
[Unknown8]: yes

753
00:46:33,490 –> 00:46:34,490
[Unknown9]: crazy

754
00:46:36,110 –> 00:46:41,470
[Unknown9]: you know it’s it’s kind of a it’s kind of a win win situation for us if it turns

755
00:46:41,470 –> 00:46:43,230
[Unknown9]: out that every single miracle that he

756
00:46:42,820 –> 00:46:43,820
[Unknown8]: i

757
00:46:43,390 –> 00:46:44,590
[Unknown9]: documented was

758
00:46:45,630 –> 00:46:47,870
[Unknown9]: a fraud or a mistake or

759
00:46:49,310 –> 00:46:54,510
[Unknown9]: simple malpractice you know if if the the people who had diagnosed

760
00:46:55,630 –> 00:47:00,830
[Unknown9]: brad wilkinson had had misdiagnosed the holes in his heart and it turns out they

761
00:47:00,910 –> 00:47:05,950
[Unknown9]: were looking at someone else’s x rays or someone else’s films even so that would

762
00:47:06,030 –> 00:47:09,710
[Unknown9]: not disprove the existence of god but

763
00:47:12,430 –> 00:47:16,670
[Unknown9]: the if if that if that one case or any one case

764
00:47:17,770 –> 00:47:18,770
[Unknown9]: did in fact

765
00:47:19,630 –> 00:47:21,150
[Unknown9]: prove to be a real

766
00:47:22,670 –> 00:47:25,070
[Unknown9]: a real violation of natural law

767
00:47:26,190 –> 00:47:29,230
[Unknown9]: and even that hes out is kind of an ambiguous concept

768
00:47:30,430 –> 00:47:34,990
[Unknown9]: then you know even one miracle one true miracle implies

769
00:47:35,730 –> 00:47:36,730
[Unknown9]: someone

770
00:47:37,530 –> 00:47:38,530
[Unknown9]: outside of our

771
00:47:39,470 –> 00:47:42,670
[Unknown9]: uh someone greater than us did something greater than us

772
00:47:42,340 –> 00:47:43,340
[Unknown8]: six

773
00:47:43,790 –> 00:47:45,790
[Unknown9]: so that’s it’s it’s definitely win win

774
00:47:45,920 –> 00:47:51,200
[Unknown8]: yeah yeah that that’s the thing i i’ll say it again i i love atheists i respect

775
00:47:51,600 –> 00:47:53,680
[Unknown8]: atheists but philosophically

776
00:47:54,720 –> 00:47:58,720
[Unknown8]: atheism is a very difficult argument

777
00:47:59,760 –> 00:48:04,960
[Unknown8]: to fully make agnosticism is not agnosticism is a pretty

778
00:48:04,530 –> 00:48:05,530
[Unknown9]: ahead

779
00:48:05,040 –> 00:48:10,880
[Unknown8]: easy philosophical position to hold atheism is very difficult you could say for

780
00:48:10,660 –> 00:48:11,660
[Unknown8]: instance

781
00:48:12,480 –> 00:48:15,040
[Unknown8]: i prayed and god didn’t do something okay and

782
00:48:14,690 –> 00:48:15,690
[Unknown9]: school

783
00:48:15,120 –> 00:48:20,800
[Unknown8]: you could get ten thousand people together and say and they could all say i prayed

784
00:48:20,880 –> 00:48:24,560
[Unknown8]: for such and such thing and god did nothing but if you got

785
00:48:24,370 –> 00:48:25,370
[Unknown9]: so

786
00:48:25,200 –> 00:48:30,640
[Unknown8]: a hundred people together in another auditorium for instance and they said beyond

787
00:48:30,720 –> 00:48:35,760
[Unknown8]: a shadow of a doubt we prayed and god did this very obvious thing a point being

788
00:48:36,560 –> 00:48:42,880
[Unknown8]: that ten million people saying i’ve never seen any existence any evidence for the

789
00:48:42,880 –> 00:48:46,480
[Unknown8]: existence of god i’ve never seen him answer prayers or anything like that as you

790
00:48:46,640 –> 00:48:50,480
[Unknown8]: say one miracle one movement of god one verifiable thing

791
00:48:51,680 –> 00:48:57,280
[Unknown8]: is evidence for the existence and the reality of god doesn’t necessarily prove

792
00:48:57,440 –> 00:49:01,520
[Unknown8]: that the god of the bible is who he says he is that’s a deeper argument but the

793
00:49:01,520 –> 00:49:08,480
[Unknown8]: argument for atheism is very very difficult to make because you basically have to

794
00:49:08,800 –> 00:49:14,240
[Unknown8]: invalidate every theistic argument and every religious experience

795
00:49:15,360 –> 00:49:17,120
[Unknown8]: and you have to have some sort of

796
00:49:18,480 –> 00:49:24,240
[Unknown8]: mega knowledge of the universe so as to say i have looked there is no god out

797
00:49:24,400 –> 00:49:26,640
[Unknown8]: there and considering we can barely

798
00:49:26,290 –> 00:49:27,290
[Unknown9]: next

799
00:49:26,800 –> 00:49:31,760
[Unknown8]: see beyond the bound of our solar system and even that we struggle with a little

800
00:49:31,760 –> 00:49:36,240
[Unknown8]: bit it’s just a difficult philosophical argument to make well not only do we

801
00:49:36,400 –> 00:49:42,800
[Unknown8]: believe miracles point to the reality of the supernatural being we believe that

802
00:49:42,960 –> 00:49:49,360
[Unknown8]: miracles point to evidence for the god of the bible in his son jesus christ did

803
00:49:49,520 –> 00:49:54,480
[Unknown8]: what are we five weeks away yanni from easter something along those lines so with

804
00:49:54,380 –> 00:49:55,380
[Unknown8]: the last

805
00:49:54,610 –> 00:49:55,610
[Unknown9]: yes

806
00:49:56,080 –> 00:50:01,120
[Unknown8]: major question of this particular episode i want to shift gears and turn us to the

807
00:50:01,200 –> 00:50:04,480
[Unknown8]: resurrection which we’re going to be celebrating we should celebrate every day

808
00:50:04,560 –> 00:50:06,480
[Unknown8]: we’re going to be celebrating wholeheartedly

809
00:50:07,520 –> 00:50:12,560
[Unknown8]: and as big as we can in the next few weeks on easter sunday lonnie is somebody who

810
00:50:12,640 –> 00:50:13,760
[Unknown8]: has written multiple

811
00:50:13,890 –> 00:50:14,890
[Unknown9]: school

812
00:50:13,920 –> 00:50:17,520
[Unknown8]: apologetics works what would you say is the most

813
00:50:17,170 –> 00:50:18,170
[Unknown9]: trans

814
00:50:17,820 –> 00:50:18,820
[Unknown8]: convincing

815
00:50:20,080 –> 00:50:21,600
[Unknown8]: argument for

816
00:50:21,410 –> 00:50:22,410
[Unknown9]: you

817
00:50:22,400 –> 00:50:27,680
[Unknown8]: the resurrection that if a skeptic came up to you and said i understand the

818
00:50:27,840 –> 00:50:29,280
[Unknown8]: centerpiece of christianity

819
00:50:30,800 –> 00:50:36,160
[Unknown8]: the big claim of christianity is that jesus christ rose from the dead how and and

820
00:50:36,240 –> 00:50:40,400
[Unknown8]: he said to you lonnie how do i know that’s true what would you say what what would

821
00:50:40,480 –> 00:50:45,200
[Unknown8]: be one of the more convincing things you would say to point them in the direction

822
00:50:45,280 –> 00:50:47,920
[Unknown8]: of the veracity of the resurrection of jesus

823
00:50:49,730 –> 00:50:50,730
[Unknown9]: well

824
00:50:51,870 –> 00:50:56,510
[Unknown9]: there are there are several very strong ones uh i really love gary haber moss’s

825
00:50:56,910 –> 00:51:02,750
[Unknown9]: minimal facts argument where he takes only things that historians accept and from

826
00:51:02,910 –> 00:51:06,910
[Unknown9]: that he builds a strong reasonable inference that jesus rose from the dead

827
00:51:08,830 –> 00:51:14,110
[Unknown9]: the thing that i think is probably the single strongest is the case of well the

828
00:51:14,270 –> 00:51:16,830
[Unknown9]: two cases of the apostle paul and

829
00:51:16,810 –> 00:51:17,810
[Unknown9]: james the just

830
00:51:16,820 –> 00:51:17,820
[Unknown8]: hey

831
00:51:19,150 –> 00:51:20,510
[Unknown9]: both of these were doubters

832
00:51:21,870 –> 00:51:24,270
[Unknown9]: both of these were opposed to christianity

833
00:51:25,390 –> 00:51:30,910
[Unknown9]: there is reason to think that james and his siblings and their mother tried to

834
00:51:30,910 –> 00:51:34,670
[Unknown9]: have jesus put away as a lunatic tried to have him locked up

835
00:51:36,190 –> 00:51:40,830
[Unknown9]: there is you know the apostle paul actually was murdering christians

836
00:51:42,430 –> 00:51:47,630
[Unknown9]: and was was participating in horrible attacks on christians

837
00:51:49,070 –> 00:51:52,350
[Unknown9]: but both of these people changed their minds

838
00:51:53,630 –> 00:51:56,990
[Unknown9]: for some reason something very dramatic changed their

839
00:51:56,700 –> 00:51:57,700
[Unknown8]: hey

840
00:51:57,150 –> 00:52:02,590
[Unknown9]: minds and both of them attribute it to being visited by jesus christ

841
00:52:04,750 –> 00:52:11,470
[Unknown9]: i recently watched a video in which barr darman appeared and even he will say

842
00:52:11,950 –> 00:52:16,990
[Unknown9]: there was something that changed their mind something that made them believe this

843
00:52:17,070 –> 00:52:22,510
[Unknown9]: now he doesn’t accept that it was a vision of jesus but he he will say okay

844
00:52:22,830 –> 00:52:28,270
[Unknown9]: something made them change their minds now you know i spent most of today in the

845
00:52:28,270 –> 00:52:32,190
[Unknown9]: presence of one of my brothers and i know how hard it is to get your brother to

846
00:52:32,270 –> 00:52:34,270
[Unknown9]: change his mind on something you know

847
00:52:35,470 –> 00:52:40,430
[Unknown9]: we we have argued over who was the thirteenth president of the united states and

848
00:52:40,510 –> 00:52:41,950
[Unknown9]: neither of us will look it up

849
00:52:43,390 –> 00:52:47,950
[Unknown9]: just just because that would settle it and then we wouldn’t be able to argue so

850
00:52:48,590 –> 00:52:54,350
[Unknown9]: the idea that your brother doesn’t believe that you are the christ and then

851
00:52:54,590 –> 00:52:56,990
[Unknown9]: something happens and all of a sudden he does believe

852
00:52:58,030 –> 00:52:59,550
[Unknown9]: that is pretty strong evidence

853
00:53:00,590 –> 00:53:05,230
[Unknown9]: and you know the apostle paul the fact that he was murdering christians and he

854
00:53:05,390 –> 00:53:07,550
[Unknown9]: threw away everything he had

855
00:53:08,590 –> 00:53:12,510
[Unknown9]: the very promising bright young man with a bright future he throws that all away

856
00:53:13,470 –> 00:53:18,430
[Unknown9]: just to say you know i’m going to go wander around europe and preach this gospel

857
00:53:18,590 –> 00:53:21,390
[Unknown9]: and have people throw rocks at me until they think i’m dead

858
00:53:22,990 –> 00:53:25,470
[Unknown9]: you know that something happened that made that

859
00:53:25,140 –> 00:53:26,140
[Unknown8]: yes

860
00:53:25,170 –> 00:53:26,170
[Unknown9]: change

861
00:53:26,800 –> 00:53:27,920
[Unknown8]: so in your mind uh

862
00:53:28,130 –> 00:53:29,130
[Unknown9]: there is

863
00:53:28,400 –> 00:53:33,040
[Unknown8]: that’s the argument you would use used the transformation of paul and james from

864
00:53:33,280 –> 00:53:36,000
[Unknown8]: enemies and skeptics to true believers

865
00:53:38,030 –> 00:53:41,470
[Unknown9]: that’s probably the strongest one that i use there is one other that i think

866
00:53:41,550 –> 00:53:43,710
[Unknown9]: should get honorable mention and that is your

867
00:53:43,870 –> 00:53:45,150
[Unknown9]: lithuanian argument

868
00:53:43,940 –> 00:53:44,940
[Unknown8]: yes

869
00:53:46,670 –> 00:53:48,030
[Unknown9]: and that that’s from your book

870
00:53:49,150 –> 00:53:52,670
[Unknown9]: easter factor fiction twenty reasons to believe in the resurrection

871
00:53:54,030 –> 00:53:56,030
[Unknown9]: basically that you know no one

872
00:53:57,790 –> 00:54:01,390
[Unknown9]: lithuania is about the size of judea lithuania

873
00:54:02,510 –> 00:54:05,950
[Unknown9]: you know very few people could tell you off the top of their head what the capital

874
00:54:06,350 –> 00:54:07,630
[Unknown9]: is or what countries

875
00:54:07,380 –> 00:54:08,380
[Unknown8]: nice

876
00:54:07,870 –> 00:54:10,990
[Unknown9]: it borders not unless they have actually studied

877
00:54:12,030 –> 00:54:16,910
[Unknown9]: that part of europe or that part of social studies and yet a country of

878
00:54:16,660 –> 00:54:17,660
[Unknown8]: i

879
00:54:16,990 –> 00:54:22,510
[Unknown9]: roughly the same size the most famous man in the world comes from a country about

880
00:54:22,670 –> 00:54:25,390
[Unknown9]: that size and he is known throughout the world

881
00:54:26,430 –> 00:54:30,590
[Unknown9]: how did that movement that started in just this little tiny corner of the world

882
00:54:31,310 –> 00:54:34,590
[Unknown9]: spread throughout the world without divine assistance

883
00:54:34,320 –> 00:54:35,360
[Unknown8]: yeah absolutely

884
00:54:35,950 –> 00:54:39,470
[Unknown9]: so that is that to me is also a very good argument

885
00:54:38,720 –> 00:54:41,200
[Unknown8]: well i appreciate the shout out um

886
00:54:42,560 –> 00:54:45,680
[Unknown8]: who do you think the thirteenth president of the united states is

887
00:54:49,150 –> 00:54:51,550
[Unknown9]: well i it is definitely not abraham

888
00:54:51,340 –> 00:54:52,340
[Unknown8]: agreed

889
00:54:51,630 –> 00:54:54,350
[Unknown9]: lincoln ah the abraham lincoln was the

890
00:54:54,100 –> 00:54:55,100
[Unknown8]: all right

891
00:54:54,430 –> 00:54:58,430
[Unknown9]: sixteenth the thirteenth let’s see the eighth was martin van buren

892
00:55:01,570 –> 00:55:02,570
[Unknown9]: let’s see

893
00:55:03,630 –> 00:55:07,310
[Unknown9]: he was it was one of the one of the presidents that has a middle initial i think

894
00:55:07,650 –> 00:55:08,650
[Unknown9]: um

895
00:55:10,110 –> 00:55:12,990
[Unknown9]: let’s see uh warren g harding was later

896
00:55:12,660 –> 00:55:13,660
[Unknown8]: y

897
00:55:13,570 –> 00:55:14,570
[Unknown9]: okay

898
00:55:16,640 –> 00:55:18,960
[Unknown8]: it starts with an m if that’s any help

899
00:55:21,370 –> 00:55:22,370
[Unknown9]: he wasn’t

900
00:55:23,250 –> 00:55:24,250
[Unknown9]: see

901
00:55:24,020 –> 00:55:25,020
[Unknown8]: not a duck

902
00:55:26,930 –> 00:55:27,930
[Unknown9]: oh mallard

903
00:55:28,590 –> 00:55:32,830
[Unknown9]: millard filmore millard filmore yes yes millard filmore

904
00:55:28,640 –> 00:55:30,480
[Unknown8]: but you got it yep

905
00:55:32,560 –> 00:55:34,320
[Unknown8]: all right well i hope your brother didn’t

906
00:55:33,890 –> 00:55:34,890
[Unknown9]: the

907
00:55:34,320 –> 00:55:37,200
[Unknown8]: have milder filmore in your uh in your disagreement there

908
00:55:39,340 –> 00:55:40,340
[Unknown8]: okay i’ll take it

909
00:55:39,390 –> 00:55:44,910
[Unknown9]: uh no no and and neither did i for that matter but you know just uh it just shows

910
00:55:44,990 –> 00:55:47,470
[Unknown9]: that you know brothers brothers are the hardest people to

911
00:55:47,470 –> 00:55:50,190
[Unknown9]: convince but somehow ks can bess

912
00:55:47,620 –> 00:55:48,620
[Unknown8]: they they are

913
00:55:49,680 –> 00:55:54,480
[Unknown8]: they are well hopefully we’ll have accomplished more with this episode than simply

914
00:55:55,200 –> 00:55:59,760
[Unknown8]: informing people who the thirteenth president of the united states is let’s do

915
00:55:59,840 –> 00:56:04,960
[Unknown8]: this your books are available on amazon and other places w i

916
00:56:05,310 –> 00:56:07,230
[Unknown9]: uh yes through lua dot com also

917
00:56:06,700 –> 00:56:07,700
[Unknown8]: say tomorrow time

918
00:56:09,310 –> 00:56:12,270
[Unknown9]: through lulu dot com lulu dot com

919
00:56:09,520 –> 00:56:15,680
[Unknown8]: lulu dot com and so we can search for cliff robinson and aug

920
00:56:15,730 –> 00:56:16,730
[Unknown9]: yes

921
00:56:16,240 –> 00:56:18,240
[Unknown8]: keep uh what would

922
00:56:18,050 –> 00:56:19,050
[Unknown9]: yep

923
00:56:18,400 –> 00:56:23,120
[Unknown8]: you say i i guess i want to ask you what your favorite book is but the that’s one

924
00:56:22,820 –> 00:56:23,820
[Unknown8]: question

925
00:56:24,400 –> 00:56:30,960
[Unknown8]: a similar question is what book if somebody said give me a book you’ve written and

926
00:56:31,040 –> 00:56:34,960
[Unknown8]: they were a skeptic or an inquirer what book would you give them

927
00:56:38,910 –> 00:56:40,270
[Unknown9]: okay that’s tough um

928
00:56:41,870 –> 00:56:47,550
[Unknown9]: the last question i would probably give them either how to be a christian or i

929
00:56:47,630 –> 00:56:51,310
[Unknown9]: would in fact i have given some people at work the book how to be a christian

930
00:56:51,390 –> 00:56:53,310
[Unknown9]: because they kept pestering me with questions

931
00:56:55,550 –> 00:57:02,030
[Unknown9]: here this will answer your questions um and but probably my favorite is is

932
00:57:02,190 –> 00:57:04,270
[Unknown9]: actually one called the atheists tale

933
00:57:04,240 –> 00:57:05,360
[Unknown8]: the atheists tale

934
00:57:07,150 –> 00:57:12,030
[Unknown9]: it is about a group of college students who determine that they’re going to get to

935
00:57:12,030 –> 00:57:14,350
[Unknown9]: the bottom of the question does god exist

936
00:57:14,700 –> 00:57:15,700
[Unknown8]: what do you fa

937
00:57:15,790 –> 00:57:20,590
[Unknown9]: and so they you know they they have a lot of influences they have non christian

938
00:57:20,750 –> 00:57:26,110
[Unknown9]: influences they have christian influences and so there are a lot of ideas that

939
00:57:26,190 –> 00:57:28,510
[Unknown9]: they are looking at and discussing and

940
00:57:30,610 –> 00:57:31,610
[Unknown9]: you know a

941
00:57:32,590 –> 00:57:35,630
[Unknown9]: a good bit of literature works in there and a good bit of science

942
00:57:37,230 –> 00:57:41,230
[Unknown9]: one of my secondary goals there was to educate people a little bit more on what

943
00:57:41,390 –> 00:57:46,430
[Unknown9]: science is because oddly enough science is not against christianity science and

944
00:57:46,510 –> 00:57:48,590
[Unknown9]: christianity work together quite well

945
00:57:48,060 –> 00:57:49,060
[Unknown8]: amen

946
00:57:49,170 –> 00:57:50,170
[Unknown9]: so

947
00:57:50,830 –> 00:57:55,470
[Unknown9]: so th that is probably my favorite book i don’t know if it is the reader’s

948
00:57:55,450 –> 00:57:56,450
[Unknown9]: favorite book

949
00:57:57,230 –> 00:58:01,470
[Unknown9]: but it is certainly certainly one of mine it was the most fun to write

950
00:58:01,760 –> 00:58:04,960
[Unknown8]: awesome and is that under cliff robinson or agg keep

951
00:58:06,430 –> 00:58:11,230
[Unknown9]: that is under oke even though that is fiction it is um it is religious fiction

952
00:58:11,390 –> 00:58:14,590
[Unknown9]: it’s under ogg keep of the atheist dales

953
00:58:12,160 –> 00:58:19,920
[Unknown8]: okay ten for the atheist tale we will have links to the works by cliff robinson

954
00:58:20,080 –> 00:58:26,000
[Unknown8]: and agg keep available on our website at deep questions pd com or you can simply

955
00:58:26,080 –> 00:58:32,560
[Unknown8]: go to amazon dot com or lulu com and search for lonnie’s works under his many

956
00:58:32,800 –> 00:58:42,560
[Unknown8]: names including og k double ep and c l i f f r o b i s o n lonnie thank you for

957
00:58:42,720 –> 00:58:47,600
[Unknown8]: your time tonight for your insightful answers i have had a blast talking about

958
00:58:47,760 –> 00:58:50,880
[Unknown8]: this with you i hope we can have you on for a future

959
00:58:51,440 –> 00:58:56,880
[Unknown8]: episode of the deep questions podcast and thank you everybody for listening we

960
00:58:51,650 –> 00:58:52,650
[Unknown9]: places

961
00:58:57,040 –> 00:59:01,040
[Unknown8]: will see you soon with probably a short episode coming up and then another couple

962
00:59:01,200 –> 00:59:04,640
[Unknown8]: of long ones good day and god speed to you all

963
00:59:07,450 –> 00:59:08,450
[Unknown9]: thank you good night

 

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