In part 2 of our interview with New Testament scholar and best-selling author Craig Keener, we discuss how modern-day miracles demonstrate how reliable the Bible is. Dr. Keener shares with us the mind-blowing story of how Barbara Cummiskey was healed of multiple issues after doctors sent her home to die. Multiple doctors and nurses are eyewitnesses of this incredible healing, and Dr. Keener will tell us all about it. We also discuss how Christians today might themselves experience more miracles.

Here is a rough and unedited transcript of this interview:

777
00:50:59,035 –> 00:51:02,795
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Yeah, how about one more miracle story? you already mentioned. Uh one

778
00:51:03,035 –> 00:51:07,195
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Barbara. Uh, Can you tell us a little bit about Barbara Kmiski and

779
00:51:07,275 –> 00:51:09,435
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: her uh, miraculous healing from

780
00:51:08,980 –> 00:51:09,980
[Unknown]: yeah

781
00:51:09,375 –> 00:51:10,375
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: M, S,

782
00:51:10,960 –> 00:51:16,320
[Unknown]: yeah she had she had a really severe case of m s and so for fifteen years

783
00:51:17,440 –> 00:51:20,000
[Unknown]: she had been physically deteriorating

784
00:51:21,120 –> 00:51:23,200
[Unknown]: and i have the reports in this case from

785
00:51:24,320 –> 00:51:25,840
[Unknown]: uh all three of her doctors

786
00:51:27,120 –> 00:51:30,640
[Unknown]: all three of them i have i haven’t been writing two of them i interviewed directly

787
00:51:30,800 –> 00:51:36,400
[Unknown]: and then one you know he he already published an article on this but

788
00:51:37,600 –> 00:51:42,000
[Unknown]: she was and by the way it’s not just christians who published articles on this site

789
00:51:42,880 –> 00:51:47,120
[Unknown]: i don’t always know what somebody’s religious background is but

790
00:51:49,360 –> 00:51:54,640
[Unknown]: there’s another interesting article by an atheist to you know he contributes to a

791
00:51:54,960 –> 00:51:57,280
[Unknown]: book on miracles an article an essay

792
00:51:59,520 –> 00:52:03,520
[Unknown]: one of his patients was pretty much an atheist was

793
00:52:04,720 –> 00:52:12,160
[Unknown]: dying just the very edge of death when a greek orthodox priest prayed for the guy

794
00:52:12,640 –> 00:52:20,400
[Unknown]: and the guy was instantly and completely healed and the the atheist doctor says you

795
00:52:20,480 –> 00:52:23,200
[Unknown]: know if this isn’t a miracle i don’t know what we’d call on

796
00:52:24,560 –> 00:52:31,520
[Unknown]: but anyway they they and jacqueline duffin i think is if she’s still an atheist an

797
00:52:31,600 –> 00:52:35,120
[Unknown]: atheist medical historian who documents a lot of cases too but

798
00:52:35,935 –> 00:52:36,935
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: S,

799
00:52:36,720 –> 00:52:40,800
[Unknown]: getting back to the one you’re asked about i’m sorry i made dd which helps me

800
00:52:41,200 –> 00:52:43,600
[Unknown]: making interdisciplinary connections but it also

801
00:52:44,880 –> 00:52:48,080
[Unknown]: makes me very entertaining to my students when i go off on time so

802
00:52:49,760 –> 00:52:54,000
[Unknown]: it also makes it very hard for me to sit for ten hours a day but anyway

803
00:52:55,280 –> 00:52:57,520
[Unknown]: i can get in the hyper focus so

804
00:53:00,320 –> 00:53:05,200
[Unknown]: barbara kamsky for fifteen years she’s been deteriorating physically spent like

805
00:53:05,360 –> 00:53:08,000
[Unknown]: half of that time in in the hospital

806
00:53:09,360 –> 00:53:14,480
[Unknown]: this time though after she left the hospital the doctors told her family she won’t

807
00:53:14,480 –> 00:53:18,720
[Unknown]: be back and they they all agreed on that don’t resuscitate order

808
00:53:20,020 –> 00:53:21,020
[Unknown]: uh

809
00:53:21,220 –> 00:53:22,220
[Unknown]: she

810
00:53:24,480 –> 00:53:28,480
[Unknown]: her her muscles were so paralyzed she was hooked up to a machine

811
00:53:30,560 –> 00:53:33,600
[Unknown]: because her diaphragm was paralyzed she had to be hooked up to the machine to help

812
00:53:33,680 –> 00:53:39,440
[Unknown]: her to breathe she had gone blind ah that wasn’t muscular i guess but she’d gone

813
00:53:39,340 –> 00:53:40,340
[Unknown]: blind and

814
00:53:41,440 –> 00:53:46,160
[Unknown]: in her words her hands were curled up like pretzels her whole body was were curled

815
00:53:46,160 –> 00:53:50,480
[Unknown]: up like pretzels but her hands were so curled up that every couple months they had

816
00:53:50,560 –> 00:53:54,960
[Unknown]: to uncurl their hands with great difficulty to get the dead skin out

817
00:53:56,240 –> 00:54:00,720
[Unknown]: um there was no way she could be stood flat on the floor because her feet were

818
00:54:01,460 –> 00:54:02,460
[Unknown]: totally curled up

819
00:54:03,780 –> 00:54:04,780
[Unknown]: and

820
00:54:06,000 –> 00:54:11,280
[Unknown]: they put out a prey request for it was given on a moody radio

821
00:54:13,040 –> 00:54:16,640
[Unknown]: and a bunch of people sent in letters this was back in the day when we actually

822
00:54:16,720 –> 00:54:21,280
[Unknown]: used hard copy letters and they and people said they were praying for

823
00:54:22,640 –> 00:54:26,560
[Unknown]: she had a couple friends visiting her and they were reading the letters when

824
00:54:26,660 –> 00:54:27,660
[Unknown]: suddenly

825
00:54:28,480 –> 00:54:31,600
[Unknown]: she heard a she heard a voice off to the side

826
00:54:32,500 –> 00:54:33,500
[Unknown]: saying my child

827
00:54:33,415 –> 00:54:34,415
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Hm,

828
00:54:33,500 –> 00:54:34,500
[Unknown]: rise up and walk

829
00:54:35,680 –> 00:54:40,160
[Unknown]: and she started you know she could still like make some motions with her

830
00:54:41,920 –> 00:54:45,680
[Unknown]: motions with her eyes even though she couldn’t see through them so i mean it wasn’t

831
00:54:45,680 –> 00:54:49,520
[Unknown]: like there was nothing that worked but uh so they

832
00:54:50,800 –> 00:54:55,920
[Unknown]: they unplugged the the breathing tube and she gasped out get mom

833
00:54:57,120 –> 00:55:00,880
[Unknown]: and so they they they ran to get her her mom but

834
00:55:02,400 –> 00:55:06,080
[Unknown]: the lord just gave her such confidence that she couldn’t even wait for her mom to

835
00:55:06,080 –> 00:55:10,160
[Unknown]: get into the room and for them to get back she jumped out of the bed which was

836
00:55:10,240 –> 00:55:14,240
[Unknown]: technically physically impossible for her first things she

837
00:55:14,015 –> 00:55:15,015
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Yes,

838
00:55:14,400 –> 00:55:19,840
[Unknown]: noticed were where her feet were flat in the floor which was impossible physically

839
00:55:20,080 –> 00:55:23,280
[Unknown]: the second thing she noticed where her hands were un curled third third thing she

840
00:55:23,280 –> 00:55:25,760
[Unknown]: noticed was that she was seeing these things with her eyes

841
00:55:26,740 –> 00:55:27,740
[Unknown]: and and

842
00:55:28,800 –> 00:55:33,600
[Unknown]: normally when we have these accounts you know god will god may heal the person

843
00:55:34,720 –> 00:55:38,800
[Unknown]: but your muscles are still atrophied it’s still going to take you time to

844
00:55:39,840 –> 00:55:44,720
[Unknown]: you know learn how to we learn how to walk and stuff after fifteen years but in her

845
00:55:44,880 –> 00:55:50,080
[Unknown]: case her muscles weren’t even atrophied i mean that’s like a total a total makeover

846
00:55:52,640 –> 00:55:57,440
[Unknown]: she she ran out of the room you know she called for her dad but by this time her

847
00:55:57,520 –> 00:56:00,560
[Unknown]: mom and the friends had come back but she called out to her dad

848
00:56:01,840 –> 00:56:06,720
[Unknown]: dad dad and he it was her sister calling you know he didn’t didn’t imagine it was

849
00:56:06,800 –> 00:56:14,480
[Unknown]: barbara so she ran out walked around the room her her fit her feet hit the the

850
00:56:14,800 –> 00:56:18,800
[Unknown]: outside it was like i think she’s in like ninety five ninety six degrees outside at

851
00:56:18,960 –> 00:56:22,080
[Unknown]: that time what a nice thought right now and

852
00:56:24,640 –> 00:56:31,440
[Unknown]: yeah and and and it it it tot blew the minds of all of her doctors it made it made

853
00:56:31,600 –> 00:56:36,400
[Unknown]: the news there were people wanting to do documentaries on it back then but

854
00:56:38,160 –> 00:56:43,200
[Unknown]: her one of her doctors said you have your choice you can either go through with all

855
00:56:43,280 –> 00:56:46,320
[Unknown]: this publicity or you can just go out and live your life she said i’m gonna go out

856
00:56:46,320 –> 00:56:47,840
[Unknown]: and live my life but you know

857
00:56:49,040 –> 00:56:54,400
[Unknown]: it was it was already in the news or doctors had had the documentation for it and

858
00:56:54,300 –> 00:56:55,300
[Unknown]: so on so

859
00:56:57,280 –> 00:57:02,960
[Unknown]: and she this was nineteen eighty one there was no recurrence she lived healthy life

860
00:57:03,840 –> 00:57:09,920
[Unknown]: wife of a wing pastor next forty years but she wasn’t a wife for forty years but i

861
00:57:10,000 –> 00:57:14,080
[Unknown]: mean eventually she got married she actually helped one of the doctors with some s

862
00:57:14,240 –> 00:57:18,640
[Unknown]: medical stuff she got some medical training you know to give back to the medical uh

863
00:57:18,960 –> 00:57:24,560
[Unknown]: community that had given her so much along the way um she finally passed away from

864
00:57:24,420 –> 00:57:25,420
[Unknown]: covid

865
00:57:26,240 –> 00:57:27,280
[Unknown]: just a few months ago

866
00:57:28,560 –> 00:57:33,920
[Unknown]: much to the sadness of those of a sur but forty years no recurrence of m s

867
00:57:37,515 –> 00:57:42,555
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: it’s it’s astounding. It’s particularly astounding because you, as

868
00:57:42,635 –> 00:57:46,075
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: you mentioned, do you have the testimony of three of her doctors and

869
00:57:46,255 –> 00:57:47,255
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: the nurses, And

870
00:57:48,875 –> 00:57:52,715
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: that’s the thing about if you never read this book or or doctorer’s

871
00:57:52,795 –> 00:57:57,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: other volume. I think these are not just stories that were told on

872
00:57:57,355 –> 00:58:01,675
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: the street corner that somebody may be posted on Facebook after an

873
00:58:01,655 –> 00:58:02,655
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: email. Ford,

874
00:58:04,075 –> 00:58:08,155
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: these, uh, these incidences not stories, These incidences, these

875
00:58:08,395 –> 00:58:13,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: happenings are are just documented by and attested by doctor after

876
00:58:14,235 –> 00:58:18,315
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: doctor, not nurse after nurse, Uh, documentation after documentation.

877
00:58:18,555 –> 00:58:22,475
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Of course every miracle is it? Uh is. sometimes they’re not witnessed

878
00:58:22,635 –> 00:58:26,235
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: by uh, video or whatever. But speaking of you, actually have several

879
00:58:26,715 –> 00:58:29,915
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: uh miracles that were caught on video that were caught on uh,

880
00:58:30,235 –> 00:58:35,355
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: photographs and things like that. And uh, it’s just overwhelming in

881
00:58:35,435 –> 00:58:38,795
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: the best possible sense of overwhelming. to read this book and get

882
00:58:38,955 –> 00:58:41,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: all these miracles. Well, it shift into the second deep question,

883
00:58:42,315 –> 00:58:44,875
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Cause we want to get you out of here in a few minutes. Uh, The

884
00:58:45,915 –> 00:58:50,235
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: all of these thousands of miracle stories. I, I don’t suppose they

885
00:58:50,555 –> 00:58:54,395
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: necessarily prove the existence of the God of the Bible, or the

886
00:58:54,635 –> 00:58:58,235
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: inheracy of the Bible, or whatever, they definitely have evidentary

887
00:58:58,475 –> 00:59:03,595
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: value. So what place did these miracle testimonies have in Evangelism

888
00:59:03,755 –> 00:59:07,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: and Apologetic? How should uh? the body of Christ use these

889
00:59:07,135 –> 00:59:08,135
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: testimonies

890
00:59:09,040 –> 00:59:12,880
[Unknown]: when i when i started to work on the first book it wasn’t from the position of

891
00:59:13,180 –> 00:59:14,180
[Unknown]: let’s prove

892
00:59:16,080 –> 00:59:22,640
[Unknown]: god it was from it was responding to the people who were saying miracles disprove

893
00:59:22,800 –> 00:59:26,160
[Unknown]: the bible because the bible talks about miracles and we know miracles can’t happen

894
00:59:26,240 –> 00:59:29,760
[Unknown]: because there are no credible eyewitnesses from miracles so i was responding to

895
00:59:29,840 –> 00:59:33,840
[Unknown]: that and saying look you can’t say that these things couldn’t have happened in the

896
00:59:33,920 –> 00:59:37,760
[Unknown]: bible because we’ve got plenty of accounts of these things happening today you can

897
00:59:38,000 –> 00:59:42,640
[Unknown]: explain them however you want to you can say okay that’s a one off that’s really

898
00:59:42,720 –> 00:59:45,520
[Unknown]: weird i’ve had people say that that’s really weird

899
00:59:47,620 –> 00:59:48,620
[Unknown]: but

900
00:59:49,200 –> 00:59:53,680
[Unknown]: you can’t just say those things don’t happen because demonstrably those things do

901
00:59:53,920 –> 00:59:59,120
[Unknown]: happen and demonstrably we do have high witnesses for them and again you know

902
00:59:59,280 –> 01:00:02,480
[Unknown]: medical documentation in many cases so

903
01:00:04,160 –> 01:00:07,680
[Unknown]: that was that was where i started it was just dealing with something within my own

904
01:00:08,160 –> 01:00:10,080
[Unknown]: discipline as a new testament scholar

905
01:00:11,120 –> 01:00:17,280
[Unknown]: and grateful to those in other disciplines like the doctors who have compiled

906
01:00:17,360 –> 01:00:19,120
[Unknown]: reports and so on some of these

907
01:00:20,560 –> 01:00:24,560
[Unknown]: recently there have been more things published in medical journals that have been

908
01:00:25,040 –> 01:00:26,640
[Unknown]: very helpful for this as well

909
01:00:27,840 –> 01:00:31,680
[Unknown]: but um but again you know how do you explain them well

910
01:00:33,360 –> 01:00:37,760
[Unknown]: based on different world views we’re going to explain them in different ways

911
01:00:39,460 –> 01:00:40,460
[Unknown]: but

912
01:00:41,760 –> 01:00:46,800
[Unknown]: it looks to me like okay well we we do have a god who cares about us a god is

913
01:00:46,880 –> 01:00:54,880
[Unknown]: benevolent but then you know christians also are hit with bys with a very real

914
01:00:55,040 –> 01:00:56,080
[Unknown]: problem of suffering

915
01:00:57,120 –> 01:01:02,880
[Unknown]: and miracles aren’t a panacea for the world’s sufferings but they show us as

916
01:01:02,960 –> 01:01:08,960
[Unknown]: christians what god cares about god cares about people he cares about like planing

917
01:01:09,040 –> 01:01:14,160
[Unknown]: multiplied food we have some accounts of that today too but when he multiplied food

918
01:01:14,400 –> 01:01:16,720
[Unknown]: he cares about people’s hunger when he multiplied

919
01:01:18,480 –> 01:01:21,440
[Unknown]: or when he still storms it cares about people’s safety when he

920
01:01:22,800 –> 01:01:27,680
[Unknown]: healed the sick he cares about people’s health and so these are things you know

921
01:01:27,500 –> 01:01:28,500
[Unknown]: they give us

922
01:01:28,015 –> 01:01:29,015
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: two,

923
01:01:28,400 –> 01:01:34,240
[Unknown]: leads so christians who work in health care are christians who work in providing

924
01:01:34,320 –> 01:01:37,680
[Unknown]: food for people or economic development or um

925
01:01:39,040 –> 01:01:44,560
[Unknown]: tornado shelters or whatever you know we’re carrying on that kind of work and then

926
01:01:44,720 –> 01:01:50,400
[Unknown]: also those of us who pray for these things you know we’re we’re we’re we’re these

927
01:01:50,560 –> 01:01:56,080
[Unknown]: are things god cares about but there’s still the issue god doesn’t do it all the

928
01:01:56,160 –> 01:01:58,480
[Unknown]: time if god did it all the time

929
01:02:00,160 –> 01:02:03,680
[Unknown]: who would listen to craig keener i mean we’d have the apostle paul right here with

930
01:02:03,840 –> 01:02:09,440
[Unknown]: us he would every time he died he would got raised again right so i mean great you

931
01:02:09,440 –> 01:02:13,360
[Unknown]: know hudson taylor and and you know all these great heroes of the faith from the

932
01:02:13,440 –> 01:02:16,240
[Unknown]: eighteen hundreds they’re not with us anymore but

933
01:02:18,720 –> 01:02:25,360
[Unknown]: in the bible miracles are not meant to be a cure for everything had to raise

934
01:02:25,600 –> 01:02:27,120
[Unknown]: everybody from the dead and so on

935
01:02:28,480 –> 01:02:33,280
[Unknown]: miracles like what we see in matthew eleven five and luke seven hundred twenty two

936
01:02:34,000 –> 01:02:40,080
[Unknown]: or matthew twelve twenty eight and luke eleven twenty do i have that right anyway

937
01:02:41,360 –> 01:02:45,280
[Unknown]: miracles are signs of the kingdom they’re a four taste

938
01:02:44,975 –> 01:02:45,975
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: yes, yes,

939
01:02:46,400 –> 01:02:51,600
[Unknown]: there there’s an eschatological confirmation when god makes all things right when

940
01:02:52,400 –> 01:02:58,960
[Unknown]: when god’s justice is you know his day the day of the lord the day of of justice

941
01:02:59,500 –> 01:03:00,500
[Unknown]: comes

942
01:03:00,860 –> 01:03:01,860
[Unknown]: so that

943
01:03:04,560 –> 01:03:08,160
[Unknown]: people say well the problem of suffering there’s an eschatological answer to that

944
01:03:08,320 –> 01:03:13,440
[Unknown]: there’s eschatological answer to injustice what miracles are there are four tastes

945
01:03:13,440 –> 01:03:18,720
[Unknown]: of that there were a reminder that god has not forgotten his promise to us that

946
01:03:18,800 –> 01:03:22,480
[Unknown]: there’s coming a day when he’s gonna wipe away every tear from her eyes so whether

947
01:03:22,560 –> 01:03:26,720
[Unknown]: he does the miracle for us or for somebody else it’s still a gift to us

948
01:03:27,920 –> 01:03:29,520
[Unknown]: because it’s a reminder of a day

949
01:03:31,280 –> 01:03:37,120
[Unknown]: the you know when as jesus has been raised from the dead talk about multiple

950
01:03:37,200 –> 01:03:43,520
[Unknown]: attestation witnesses and people credible enough to die for their testimony but but

951
01:03:43,680 –> 01:03:45,600
[Unknown]: just as jesus was raised from the dead

952
01:03:47,360 –> 01:03:54,160
[Unknown]: someday we who are the body of christ in the one sense will be raised bodily

953
01:03:55,280 –> 01:03:58,480
[Unknown]: transformed to be like his own glorious body in

954
01:04:00,000 –> 01:04:02,720
[Unknown]: the physical sense um i mean

955
01:04:04,160 –> 01:04:08,480
[Unknown]: not the present kind of body paul speaks of that you know different kinds of bodies

956
01:04:08,100 –> 01:04:09,100
[Unknown]: but

957
01:04:10,580 –> 01:04:11,580
[Unknown]: but

958
01:04:12,320 –> 01:04:16,080
[Unknown]: an incorruptible better to translate imperishable

959
01:04:18,320 –> 01:04:19,600
[Unknown]: immortal body so

960
01:04:20,640 –> 01:04:23,520
[Unknown]: there is an eschatological answer but he’s already given us

961
01:04:24,640 –> 01:04:26,880
[Unknown]: a four taste of that in the present and

962
01:04:28,140 –> 01:04:29,140
[Unknown]: in terms of

963
01:04:30,640 –> 01:04:32,960
[Unknown]: you know in a western apologetic context

964
01:04:34,800 –> 01:04:37,520
[Unknown]: they they help us they don’t hurt us

965
01:04:39,200 –> 01:04:40,480
[Unknown]: but in contexts where

966
01:04:41,760 –> 01:04:44,320
[Unknown]: power encounters are are the big thing

967
01:04:46,080 –> 01:04:51,360
[Unknown]: you know in many cultures like i said earlier that’s the main way people are coming

968
01:04:51,340 –> 01:04:52,340
[Unknown]: to faith in christ

969
01:04:53,840 –> 01:04:59,280
[Unknown]: you know you see that in the book of acts you have a palace who can argue an

970
01:04:59,360 –> 01:05:04,160
[Unknown]: argument really well make a really good case you have the jerusalem apostles who

971
01:05:04,320 –> 01:05:09,680
[Unknown]: probably couldn’t do that so well but you know they had they had miracles of signs

972
01:05:09,680 –> 01:05:14,080
[Unknown]: and wonders many are paul who could do both um so

973
01:05:16,000 –> 01:05:20,560
[Unknown]: there are different contexts and different ways that we can make the case for

974
01:05:20,720 –> 01:05:26,400
[Unknown]: christ but all these are god’s gifts to us he’s given so much evidence but

975
01:05:26,640 –> 01:05:30,240
[Unknown]: sometimes people will say well if he doesn’t do it this way

976
01:05:31,520 –> 01:05:36,080
[Unknown]: so i have to see somebody raised from the dead in front of me or you know not not

977
01:05:36,240 –> 01:05:38,880
[Unknown]: even that my name has to be written in the clouds across the sky

978
01:05:41,760 –> 01:05:43,360
[Unknown]: god won’t jump through our hoops

979
01:05:44,420 –> 01:05:45,420
[Unknown]: he’s given

980
01:05:45,175 –> 01:05:46,175
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: no, we won’t

981
01:05:45,360 –> 01:05:50,720
[Unknown]: us evidence and it’s up to us whether we’ll accept it or not but i think he’s given

982
01:05:50,880 –> 01:05:52,000
[Unknown]: us plenty of evidence

983
01:05:54,635 –> 01:05:56,795
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: completely agree. You know you read the Bible.

984
01:05:58,395 –> 01:06:01,435
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: One of the strongest objections against miracles that someone might

985
01:06:01,515 –> 01:06:05,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: have is know, I pray for miracle and didn’t happen. Uh, my dad died.

986
01:06:05,595 –> 01:06:09,035
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Ah, you know I have cancer, and God has it healed me that that sort

987
01:06:09,115 –> 01:06:13,355
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: of thing, And you read the Bible, and and you see miracles are rare.

988
01:06:13,915 –> 01:06:18,155
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Uh, encounters with God didn’t happen every day, even for the giants

989
01:06:18,235 –> 01:06:21,755
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: of the faith. I mean, Moses was around eighty when he first heard

990
01:06:21,995 –> 01:06:26,955
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: from God, and Uh, you’ll find times in Abraham’s life where he went

991
01:06:27,035 –> 01:06:31,195
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: over a decade without having a recorded encounter with God, and A,

992
01:06:31,595 –> 01:06:36,635
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: and so miracles are not common. Uh, you know, almost by definition, I

993
01:06:36,795 –> 01:06:40,075
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: remember an incident a few years ago. I, I, I believe in miracles. I

994
01:06:40,155 –> 01:06:42,875
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: pray for healing and things like that, and I was teaching a college

995
01:06:43,195 –> 01:06:45,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: class and and one of the ladies in the class came up and asked me to

996
01:06:46,075 –> 01:06:49,915
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: pray for her. Uh, she was sick and I remember laughing internally

997
01:06:50,235 –> 01:06:56,475
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: because at that time my kids of I’ five kids, uh, all of whom are at

998
01:06:56,475 –> 01:06:59,595
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: least four and a half of them have asthma. At that time they’d been

999
01:06:59,755 –> 01:07:03,195
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: going through like really hard sicknesses, and I was praying for them

1000
01:07:03,435 –> 01:07:07,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: morning, noon and night, and uh, at the time I was frustrated because

1001
01:07:07,435 –> 01:07:11,035
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: God hadn’t answered my prayer, so she asked me to pray. I chuckled on

1002
01:07:11,035 –> 01:07:15,915
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: the inside. I put my hand on her shoulder, prayed for. She messaged

1003
01:07:16,155 –> 01:07:19,515
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: me that afternoon like two or three hours later and said past, Uh,

1004
01:07:19,675 –> 01:07:24,155
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: pastor, I’m miraculously healed A and I believed her and I was like

1005
01:07:24,235 –> 01:07:27,035
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Well, God, what does she heal my kids? I’ve been praying for them for

1006
01:07:27,115 –> 01:07:30,475
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: so much, but sometimes we’re not going to have the answers to those

1007
01:07:30,715 –> 01:07:34,235
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: questions and I, I’ve seen plenty of times God move, and plenty of

1008
01:07:34,315 –> 01:07:39,515
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: times God not move. and Um, as you say, he does not jump through our

1009
01:07:39,755 –> 01:07:41,035
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: hoops. Right. One last,

1010
01:07:41,120 –> 01:07:44,160
[Unknown]: tonight can i say something like that i know we’re running on time but

1011
01:07:41,275 –> 01:07:44,715
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: uh, big question for you. Oh, please play just sir.

1012
01:07:45,440 –> 01:07:47,040
[Unknown]: but what you said about reported

1013
01:07:48,560 –> 01:07:53,280
[Unknown]: incidents in abraham’s life we don’t want to argue from silence like

1014
01:07:54,335 –> 01:07:55,335
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Sure, yeah,

1015
01:07:55,120 –> 01:08:01,520
[Unknown]: so but there are are explicit or am i are you getting the same feedback from my

1016
01:08:01,260 –> 01:08:02,260
[Unknown]: voice

1017
01:08:03,620 –> 01:08:04,620
[Unknown]: okay

1018
01:08:04,155 –> 01:08:05,355
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Oh, you sound good to me.

1019
01:08:05,440 –> 01:08:10,000
[Unknown]: there there are explicit cases in the bible where people weren’t healed like elisha

1020
01:08:10,480 –> 01:08:14,640
[Unknown]: died of sickness he was still so his his bones were still so full of the power of

1021
01:08:14,720 –> 01:08:18,560
[Unknown]: god they threw a corpse on the top of them the course corpse res stated i think

1022
01:08:18,560 –> 01:08:21,120
[Unknown]: it’s second king’s thirteen or something like that so

1023
01:08:22,560 –> 01:08:29,040
[Unknown]: so we do have you know tropheus attis sick epaphroditus was sick close to the point

1024
01:08:29,200 –> 01:08:34,720
[Unknown]: of death but god mercy on him philippians two the other one was second timothy four

1025
01:08:34,960 –> 01:08:40,240
[Unknown]: think so we have a lot of well not a lot the bible is going to tell us more about

1026
01:08:40,320 –> 01:08:43,440
[Unknown]: the healings than the non healings we don’t really need a whole lot of

1027
01:08:43,520 –> 01:08:48,800
[Unknown]: encouragement to believe in non healings because we know about those but um but it

1028
01:08:48,880 –> 01:08:51,040
[Unknown]: doesn’t tell us about all the healings either so

1029
01:08:52,080 –> 01:08:55,520
[Unknown]: but they did happen more in some some places than in others so

1030
01:08:57,760 –> 01:09:03,040
[Unknown]: we see we see it all over the place in the gospels and acts because the gospel was

1031
01:09:03,200 –> 01:09:08,080
[Unknown]: breaking new ground there and i think that’s where we see it most consistently

1032
01:09:08,320 –> 01:09:11,440
[Unknown]: today as well is where the gospel is breaking new ground

1033
01:09:12,480 –> 01:09:16,720
[Unknown]: that’s not to say he doesn’t do it other times as we’ve both mentioned in other

1034
01:09:16,960 –> 01:09:20,800
[Unknown]: places but just to say we see it most consistently where

1035
01:09:22,640 –> 01:09:27,520
[Unknown]: the dramatic ones are most needed and in terms of when he does it through medical

1036
01:09:27,600 –> 01:09:30,320
[Unknown]: care and so on those aren’t dramatic but

1037
01:09:32,620 –> 01:09:33,620
[Unknown]: we we may say

1038
01:09:35,600 –> 01:09:39,840
[Unknown]: what you said earlier but sometimes god moves sometimes he doesn’t actually he

1039
01:09:40,000 –> 01:09:42,720
[Unknown]: moves all the time but sometimes we see it and sometimes

1040
01:09:42,335 –> 01:09:43,335
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Yes,

1041
01:09:43,040 –> 01:09:48,400
[Unknown]: we don’t in the sense that that we’re alive is god’s gift i mean that you know

1042
01:09:49,120 –> 01:09:51,840
[Unknown]: moment of life is god’s gift so

1043
01:09:53,360 –> 01:09:57,840
[Unknown]: anyway i talk too much so there are too many tangents we could go off on with that

1044
01:09:57,540 –> 01:09:58,540
[Unknown]: but

1045
01:10:00,795 –> 01:10:03,755
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: those are. Those are great clarifications in your absolute right. Um,

1046
01:10:04,635 –> 01:10:09,035
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: God did not answer Paul’s prayer about the thorn in the flesh the way

1047
01:10:09,515 –> 01:10:13,915
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Paul wanted him to. Um. and God did not answer Jesus’ prayer

1048
01:10:13,460 –> 01:10:14,460
[Unknown]: right

1049
01:10:13,995 –> 01:10:17,435
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: in the Garden of Getsemite, the way that Uh, Jesus might have wanted

1050
01:10:17,595 –> 01:10:21,035
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: him to in that moment, but he was most certainly moving and he was

1051
01:10:21,275 –> 01:10:24,795
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: accomplishing incredible things. And and and you’re right from our

1052
01:10:24,955 –> 01:10:29,515
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: perspective, sometimes it it looks like Um, God is silent, or God is

1053
01:10:29,675 –> 01:10:30,955
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: unmoved or un, un,

1054
01:10:32,395 –> 01:10:36,795
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: uh, uh, unactive in our prayers. But I mean he is working his

1055
01:10:37,115 –> 01:10:41,755
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: sovereign plan in every uh molecule in the world, in every mill

1056
01:10:41,995 –> 01:10:45,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: second of the world. We just can’t always see that, and therefore we

1057
01:10:45,435 –> 01:10:46,555
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: sort of feel uh,

1058
01:10:46,180 –> 01:10:47,180
[Unknown]: yes

1059
01:10:46,795 –> 01:10:50,075
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: left out. Uh, and we’re not, And and I also appreciate your point

1060
01:10:50,315 –> 01:10:53,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: about uh, the the pioneering areas of the gospel. You definitely see

1061
01:10:54,075 –> 01:10:57,595
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: that in the Bible. Uh, I do not agree with the dispensationalists,

1062
01:10:57,675 –> 01:11:01,355
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: who who say that there’s only uh, a few eras of scripture where we

1063
01:11:01,435 –> 01:11:04,875
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: see miracles. I, I think you’re absolutely right. We primarily see it

1064
01:11:05,115 –> 01:11:09,915
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: uh, when in places where the gospel is, Uh is on the move on on the

1065
01:11:09,995 –> 01:11:14,235
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: expansion, and we don’t often see it in church history and areas of

1066
01:11:14,555 –> 01:11:18,555
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: enlightenment, where uh. the easiest thing to do is to call nine one

1067
01:11:18,795 –> 01:11:22,955
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: one, as opposed to uh, uh, hitting your knees and seeking the Lord

1068
01:11:23,115 –> 01:11:26,235
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: fervently and I’m not opposed to calling nine one one or doctors or

1069
01:11:26,315 –> 01:11:28,555
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: anything like that. Of course, Okay, final question,

1070
01:11:29,215 –> 01:11:30,215
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Um,

1071
01:11:30,955 –> 01:11:35,115
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: this is from Uh, Mark Corbett, who is a part of the C. A. A Christian

1072
01:11:35,275 –> 01:11:39,355
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Apologetics Alliance Facebook group. Uh, for for those that are out

1073
01:11:39,515 –> 01:11:44,075
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: there, Doctor Keener, that are hungry to see God move wherever they

1074
01:11:44,155 –> 01:11:47,915
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: are. they’re hungry to see more miracles. Uh, and more obvious

1075
01:11:48,235 –> 01:11:50,315
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: movements of God. Knowing God is always

1076
01:11:50,260 –> 01:11:51,260
[Unknown]: like

1077
01:11:50,555 –> 01:11:53,355
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: moving, but they want to see. they want to see more thanraculous.

1078
01:11:53,595 –> 01:11:57,915
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: they want to see revival. Uh, they want to see Um. healings, and that

1079
01:11:57,995 –> 01:12:00,075
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: sort of thing. Do you have any advice for us,

1080
01:12:00,800 –> 01:12:04,480
[Unknown]: yeah i can give i can give some uh but i but i give them

1081
01:12:06,240 –> 01:12:10,560
[Unknown]: more is a a researcher in a sense like there’s different gifts and so my gift is

1082
01:12:10,640 –> 01:12:11,840
[Unknown]: more in the gift of teaching

1083
01:12:11,355 –> 01:13:06,235
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Smm.

1084
01:12:13,040 –> 01:12:17,200
[Unknown]: but like i’ve said sometimes or maybe i didn’t say sometimes when i pray for people

1085
01:12:17,280 –> 01:12:18,720
[Unknown]: they get healed and like you said

1086
01:12:20,720 –> 01:12:24,240
[Unknown]: and i should have said sometimes i pray for people they don’t get healed but

1087
01:12:25,680 –> 01:12:31,920
[Unknown]: and sometimes it’s dramatic and sometimes it’s you know it just i mean if god work

1088
01:12:32,160 –> 01:12:34,640
[Unknown]: through medicine or whatever that’s an answer to prayer

1089
01:12:36,000 –> 01:12:41,040
[Unknown]: but there are parts of the world where that’s not available and so uh

1090
01:12:42,080 –> 01:12:43,440
[Unknown]: we want to work to make it available

1091
01:12:44,560 –> 01:12:46,320
[Unknown]: and we want to pray for for people

1092
01:12:48,320 –> 01:12:53,360
[Unknown]: even in the u s a lot of the cases not all of them by any mean well some of them

1093
01:12:53,680 –> 01:13:00,400
[Unknown]: the spirit specifically led somebody to pray like when uh doctor chanty crandall

1094
01:13:00,800 –> 01:13:04,960
[Unknown]: was led to pray for a man who had been flat lined for forty minutes and the guy

1095
01:13:04,780 –> 01:13:05,780
[Unknown]: came back

1096
01:13:08,560 –> 01:13:10,560
[Unknown]: but he had also prayed for his own son

1097
01:13:12,480 –> 01:13:15,120
[Unknown]: chad who had died of leukemia and he didn’t come back

1098
01:13:18,180 –> 01:13:19,180
[Unknown]: but

1099
01:13:20,240 –> 01:13:24,640
[Unknown]: on the cutting edge of evangelism that matters here in the us too i have a student

1100
01:13:25,680 –> 01:13:26,800
[Unknown]: from new jersey who

1101
01:13:27,380 –> 01:13:28,380
[Unknown]: um

1102
01:13:28,960 –> 01:13:32,400
[Unknown]: he was just out sharing his faith he met a woman who was deaf on the street he

1103
01:13:32,480 –> 01:13:37,760
[Unknown]: prayed for her she was to her surprise was instantly healed um

1104
01:13:38,660 –> 01:13:39,660
[Unknown]: so

1105
01:13:40,240 –> 01:13:42,800
[Unknown]: and actually i’ve seen that sometimes with

1106
01:13:44,960 –> 01:13:50,080
[Unknown]: when we when we’re sharing the gospel with people or maybe maybe we’re just at work

1107
01:13:50,240 –> 01:13:51,760
[Unknown]: you know when it’s a coworker or something

1108
01:13:52,800 –> 01:13:56,640
[Unknown]: but we we stop to offer prayer for them usually people don’t mind if you pray i

1109
01:13:56,720 –> 01:14:00,560
[Unknown]: mean we’re not guaranteeing that god will hear our prayer but we’re showing our

1110
01:14:00,640 –> 01:14:04,080
[Unknown]: concern for them in the way that’s available to us of course if you’re a doctor go

1111
01:14:04,240 –> 01:14:05,680
[Unknown]: ahead and show concern that way too but

1112
01:14:08,240 –> 01:14:12,320
[Unknown]: in in whatever ways that are available to us so we pray for them and sometimes

1113
01:14:13,520 –> 01:14:16,480
[Unknown]: god will heal them and get their attention so

1114
01:14:18,800 –> 01:14:24,480
[Unknown]: and also as an apologist um when you do find people being healed it’s really great

1115
01:14:24,640 –> 01:14:25,760
[Unknown]: to get the documentation

1116
01:14:27,060 –> 01:14:28,060
[Unknown]: if it’s available

1117
01:14:27,455 –> 01:14:28,455
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Mhm,

1118
01:14:28,320 –> 01:14:29,920
[Unknown]: i mean a lot of times it’s not available

1119
01:14:31,520 –> 01:14:34,320
[Unknown]: uh you don’t have before and after records

1120
01:14:35,680 –> 01:14:40,160
[Unknown]: it depends on what it is but but if they’re available and if it’s not gonna cause

1121
01:14:40,320 –> 01:14:44,160
[Unknown]: the person to stumble you know like you just you just prayed for me so you could

1122
01:14:44,320 –> 01:14:47,840
[Unknown]: get the documentation or whatever but you know if it’s if it’s appropriate

1123
01:14:49,440 –> 01:14:51,440
[Unknown]: try to get the documentation because then

1124
01:14:52,480 –> 01:14:53,840
[Unknown]: the testimony can go further

1125
01:14:55,200 –> 01:15:00,720
[Unknown]: often in the gospels it says after jesus healed somebody and everybody glorified

1126
01:15:00,960 –> 01:15:03,200
[Unknown]: god or at least they were all amazed

1127
01:15:04,800 –> 01:15:07,280
[Unknown]: the testimony can go further if you can

1128
01:15:09,020 –> 01:15:10,020
[Unknown]: you know to a

1129
01:15:11,040 –> 01:15:13,120
[Unknown]: a skeptical generation if you can

1130
01:15:14,140 –> 01:15:15,140
[Unknown]: get some of the

1131
01:15:16,080 –> 01:15:17,360
[Unknown]: the corroboration for it

1132
01:15:20,955 –> 01:15:25,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: That is great counsel. You mentioned prayer. I read an interview with

1133
01:15:25,435 –> 01:15:29,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Uh pastor Tim Keller, Earlier today, T Keller was the pastor of

1134
01:15:29,995 –> 01:15:32,315
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Redeemer Church in New York City, retired

1135
01:15:33,515 –> 01:15:38,475
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: fighting cancer. At the moment, he was as the question. Um. What is

1136
01:15:38,715 –> 01:15:44,635
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: one regret You have Uh of your ministry And he gave a one’ answer And

1137
01:15:44,335 –> 01:15:45,335
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: it was.

1138
01:15:46,155 –> 01:15:49,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: It was wonderful and devastating At the same time to hear it. As a

1139
01:15:50,075 –> 01:15:55,115
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: pastor, he said, I wish I prayed more, and I think that that’s good

1140
01:15:55,275 –> 01:15:57,515
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: counsel for anybody seeking a

1141
01:15:57,675 –> 01:16:03,435
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: miraculous move of God. that uh, we we abide John, Fifteen. Apart

1142
01:15:57,700 –> 01:15:58,700
[Unknown]: yeah

1143
01:16:03,515 –> 01:16:08,555
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: from him we can do nothing. and uh, I think the more Um, I don’t know

1144
01:16:08,635 –> 01:16:11,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: that there’s uh. you. You pray ten hours a day. you’re gonna see ten

1145
01:16:12,155 –> 01:16:15,115
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: miracles, kind of correlation. In fact, I know there’s not that kind

1146
01:16:15,195 –> 01:16:19,835
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: of correlation, but I, I do know that the people who have uh uh

1147
01:16:19,995 –> 01:16:23,675
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: committed their life to pray, uh, and to pray for the sick, or will

1148
01:16:23,915 –> 01:16:28,395
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: definitely see Uh. more miracles. people like Ree Howells, Uh, people

1149
01:16:28,635 –> 01:16:33,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: like John Praying Hyde, Uh, people like Uh M. Hickson, the Anglican,

1150
01:16:34,235 –> 01:16:37,755
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Uh gentleman, you mentioned in your book, Uh, well, Doctor Keer, I

1151
01:16:37,755 –> 01:16:41,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: can’t thank you enough for your time. Uh, we have made a donation to

1152
01:16:41,435 –> 01:16:47,115
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Iris Global. Uh, which Uh, does ministry in Musm, beque, uh, all

1153
01:16:47,195 –> 01:16:49,755
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: sorts of ministry, feeding the hungry, taking care of orphans,

1154
01:16:49,915 –> 01:16:53,355
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: proclaiming the gospel, praying for the sick and seeing miracles, And

1155
01:16:53,515 –> 01:16:56,955
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: I would encourage you if you were listening to this podcast To also

1156
01:16:57,275 –> 01:17:01,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: uh, make a donation to Iris Global and Doctor Keener’s honor, Doctor

1157
01:17:01,435 –> 01:17:05,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Gaer. Your time is precious. You are an incredibly busy man and and I

1158
01:17:06,075 –> 01:17:10,075
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: am so grateful that you have interacted with me by email, and that

1159
01:17:10,235 –> 01:17:14,315
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: you have spent time here on the podcast. and uh, as as we prayed

1160
01:17:14,715 –> 01:17:18,875
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: before, uh, we started made the Lord use this, Uh, in mighty ways, in

1161
01:17:19,035 –> 01:17:21,195
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: multiple ways for his kingdom. Thank you,

1162
01:17:20,400 –> 01:17:22,080
[Unknown]: thank thank you brother god bless you

1163
01:17:23,995 –> 01:17:25,435
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: God bless you. Take care.