In part 2 of our interview with New Testament scholar and best-selling author Craig Keener, we discuss how modern-day miracles demonstrate how reliable the Bible is. Dr. Keener shares with us the mind-blowing story of how Barbara Cummiskey was healed of multiple issues after doctors sent her home to die. Multiple doctors and nurses are eyewitnesses of this incredible healing, and Dr. Keener will tell us all about it. We also discuss how Christians today might themselves experience more miracles.
Here is a rough and unedited transcript of this interview:
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00:50:59,035 –> 00:51:02,795
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Yeah, how about one more miracle story? you already mentioned. Uh one
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Barbara. Uh, Can you tell us a little bit about Barbara Kmiski and
779
00:51:07,275 –> 00:51:09,435
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: her uh, miraculous healing from
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[Unknown]: yeah
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: M, S,
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[Unknown]: yeah she had she had a really severe case of m s and so for fifteen years
783
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[Unknown]: she had been physically deteriorating
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[Unknown]: and i have the reports in this case from
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[Unknown]: uh all three of her doctors
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00:51:27,120 –> 00:51:30,640
[Unknown]: all three of them i have i haven’t been writing two of them i interviewed directly
787
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[Unknown]: and then one you know he he already published an article on this but
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[Unknown]: she was and by the way it’s not just christians who published articles on this site
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[Unknown]: i don’t always know what somebody’s religious background is but
790
00:51:49,360 –> 00:51:54,640
[Unknown]: there’s another interesting article by an atheist to you know he contributes to a
791
00:51:54,960 –> 00:51:57,280
[Unknown]: book on miracles an article an essay
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00:51:59,520 –> 00:52:03,520
[Unknown]: one of his patients was pretty much an atheist was
793
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[Unknown]: dying just the very edge of death when a greek orthodox priest prayed for the guy
794
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[Unknown]: and the guy was instantly and completely healed and the the atheist doctor says you
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00:52:20,480 –> 00:52:23,200
[Unknown]: know if this isn’t a miracle i don’t know what we’d call on
796
00:52:24,560 –> 00:52:31,520
[Unknown]: but anyway they they and jacqueline duffin i think is if she’s still an atheist an
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00:52:31,600 –> 00:52:35,120
[Unknown]: atheist medical historian who documents a lot of cases too but
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: S,
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[Unknown]: getting back to the one you’re asked about i’m sorry i made dd which helps me
800
00:52:41,200 –> 00:52:43,600
[Unknown]: making interdisciplinary connections but it also
801
00:52:44,880 –> 00:52:48,080
[Unknown]: makes me very entertaining to my students when i go off on time so
802
00:52:49,760 –> 00:52:54,000
[Unknown]: it also makes it very hard for me to sit for ten hours a day but anyway
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00:52:55,280 –> 00:52:57,520
[Unknown]: i can get in the hyper focus so
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00:53:00,320 –> 00:53:05,200
[Unknown]: barbara kamsky for fifteen years she’s been deteriorating physically spent like
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00:53:05,360 –> 00:53:08,000
[Unknown]: half of that time in in the hospital
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00:53:09,360 –> 00:53:14,480
[Unknown]: this time though after she left the hospital the doctors told her family she won’t
807
00:53:14,480 –> 00:53:18,720
[Unknown]: be back and they they all agreed on that don’t resuscitate order
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[Unknown]: uh
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[Unknown]: she
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00:53:24,480 –> 00:53:28,480
[Unknown]: her her muscles were so paralyzed she was hooked up to a machine
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[Unknown]: because her diaphragm was paralyzed she had to be hooked up to the machine to help
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00:53:33,680 –> 00:53:39,440
[Unknown]: her to breathe she had gone blind ah that wasn’t muscular i guess but she’d gone
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[Unknown]: blind and
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[Unknown]: in her words her hands were curled up like pretzels her whole body was were curled
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00:53:46,160 –> 00:53:50,480
[Unknown]: up like pretzels but her hands were so curled up that every couple months they had
816
00:53:50,560 –> 00:53:54,960
[Unknown]: to uncurl their hands with great difficulty to get the dead skin out
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00:53:56,240 –> 00:54:00,720
[Unknown]: um there was no way she could be stood flat on the floor because her feet were
818
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[Unknown]: totally curled up
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[Unknown]: and
820
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[Unknown]: they put out a prey request for it was given on a moody radio
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[Unknown]: and a bunch of people sent in letters this was back in the day when we actually
822
00:54:16,720 –> 00:54:21,280
[Unknown]: used hard copy letters and they and people said they were praying for
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[Unknown]: she had a couple friends visiting her and they were reading the letters when
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00:54:26,660 –> 00:54:27,660
[Unknown]: suddenly
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[Unknown]: she heard a she heard a voice off to the side
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[Unknown]: saying my child
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Hm,
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[Unknown]: rise up and walk
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[Unknown]: and she started you know she could still like make some motions with her
830
00:54:41,920 –> 00:54:45,680
[Unknown]: motions with her eyes even though she couldn’t see through them so i mean it wasn’t
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[Unknown]: like there was nothing that worked but uh so they
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[Unknown]: they unplugged the the breathing tube and she gasped out get mom
833
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[Unknown]: and so they they they ran to get her her mom but
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00:55:02,400 –> 00:55:06,080
[Unknown]: the lord just gave her such confidence that she couldn’t even wait for her mom to
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00:55:06,080 –> 00:55:10,160
[Unknown]: get into the room and for them to get back she jumped out of the bed which was
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00:55:10,240 –> 00:55:14,240
[Unknown]: technically physically impossible for her first things she
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Yes,
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00:55:14,400 –> 00:55:19,840
[Unknown]: noticed were where her feet were flat in the floor which was impossible physically
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00:55:20,080 –> 00:55:23,280
[Unknown]: the second thing she noticed where her hands were un curled third third thing she
840
00:55:23,280 –> 00:55:25,760
[Unknown]: noticed was that she was seeing these things with her eyes
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[Unknown]: and and
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00:55:28,800 –> 00:55:33,600
[Unknown]: normally when we have these accounts you know god will god may heal the person
843
00:55:34,720 –> 00:55:38,800
[Unknown]: but your muscles are still atrophied it’s still going to take you time to
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00:55:39,840 –> 00:55:44,720
[Unknown]: you know learn how to we learn how to walk and stuff after fifteen years but in her
845
00:55:44,880 –> 00:55:50,080
[Unknown]: case her muscles weren’t even atrophied i mean that’s like a total a total makeover
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00:55:52,640 –> 00:55:57,440
[Unknown]: she she ran out of the room you know she called for her dad but by this time her
847
00:55:57,520 –> 00:56:00,560
[Unknown]: mom and the friends had come back but she called out to her dad
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[Unknown]: dad dad and he it was her sister calling you know he didn’t didn’t imagine it was
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00:56:06,800 –> 00:56:14,480
[Unknown]: barbara so she ran out walked around the room her her fit her feet hit the the
850
00:56:14,800 –> 00:56:18,800
[Unknown]: outside it was like i think she’s in like ninety five ninety six degrees outside at
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00:56:18,960 –> 00:56:22,080
[Unknown]: that time what a nice thought right now and
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[Unknown]: yeah and and and it it it tot blew the minds of all of her doctors it made it made
853
00:56:31,600 –> 00:56:36,400
[Unknown]: the news there were people wanting to do documentaries on it back then but
854
00:56:38,160 –> 00:56:43,200
[Unknown]: her one of her doctors said you have your choice you can either go through with all
855
00:56:43,280 –> 00:56:46,320
[Unknown]: this publicity or you can just go out and live your life she said i’m gonna go out
856
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[Unknown]: and live my life but you know
857
00:56:49,040 –> 00:56:54,400
[Unknown]: it was it was already in the news or doctors had had the documentation for it and
858
00:56:54,300 –> 00:56:55,300
[Unknown]: so on so
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00:56:57,280 –> 00:57:02,960
[Unknown]: and she this was nineteen eighty one there was no recurrence she lived healthy life
860
00:57:03,840 –> 00:57:09,920
[Unknown]: wife of a wing pastor next forty years but she wasn’t a wife for forty years but i
861
00:57:10,000 –> 00:57:14,080
[Unknown]: mean eventually she got married she actually helped one of the doctors with some s
862
00:57:14,240 –> 00:57:18,640
[Unknown]: medical stuff she got some medical training you know to give back to the medical uh
863
00:57:18,960 –> 00:57:24,560
[Unknown]: community that had given her so much along the way um she finally passed away from
864
00:57:24,420 –> 00:57:25,420
[Unknown]: covid
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[Unknown]: just a few months ago
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[Unknown]: much to the sadness of those of a sur but forty years no recurrence of m s
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: it’s it’s astounding. It’s particularly astounding because you, as
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: you mentioned, do you have the testimony of three of her doctors and
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: the nurses, And
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: that’s the thing about if you never read this book or or doctorer’s
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00:57:52,795 –> 00:57:57,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: other volume. I think these are not just stories that were told on
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00:57:57,355 –> 00:58:01,675
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: the street corner that somebody may be posted on Facebook after an
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: email. Ford,
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: these, uh, these incidences not stories, These incidences, these
875
00:58:08,395 –> 00:58:13,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: happenings are are just documented by and attested by doctor after
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00:58:14,235 –> 00:58:18,315
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: doctor, not nurse after nurse, Uh, documentation after documentation.
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Of course every miracle is it? Uh is. sometimes they’re not witnessed
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00:58:22,635 –> 00:58:26,235
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: by uh, video or whatever. But speaking of you, actually have several
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00:58:26,715 –> 00:58:29,915
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: uh miracles that were caught on video that were caught on uh,
880
00:58:30,235 –> 00:58:35,355
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: photographs and things like that. And uh, it’s just overwhelming in
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: the best possible sense of overwhelming. to read this book and get
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: all these miracles. Well, it shift into the second deep question,
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Cause we want to get you out of here in a few minutes. Uh, The
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00:58:45,915 –> 00:58:50,235
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: all of these thousands of miracle stories. I, I don’t suppose they
885
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: necessarily prove the existence of the God of the Bible, or the
886
00:58:54,635 –> 00:58:58,235
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: inheracy of the Bible, or whatever, they definitely have evidentary
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: value. So what place did these miracle testimonies have in Evangelism
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00:59:03,755 –> 00:59:07,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: and Apologetic? How should uh? the body of Christ use these
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00:59:07,135 –> 00:59:08,135
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: testimonies
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00:59:09,040 –> 00:59:12,880
[Unknown]: when i when i started to work on the first book it wasn’t from the position of
891
00:59:13,180 –> 00:59:14,180
[Unknown]: let’s prove
892
00:59:16,080 –> 00:59:22,640
[Unknown]: god it was from it was responding to the people who were saying miracles disprove
893
00:59:22,800 –> 00:59:26,160
[Unknown]: the bible because the bible talks about miracles and we know miracles can’t happen
894
00:59:26,240 –> 00:59:29,760
[Unknown]: because there are no credible eyewitnesses from miracles so i was responding to
895
00:59:29,840 –> 00:59:33,840
[Unknown]: that and saying look you can’t say that these things couldn’t have happened in the
896
00:59:33,920 –> 00:59:37,760
[Unknown]: bible because we’ve got plenty of accounts of these things happening today you can
897
00:59:38,000 –> 00:59:42,640
[Unknown]: explain them however you want to you can say okay that’s a one off that’s really
898
00:59:42,720 –> 00:59:45,520
[Unknown]: weird i’ve had people say that that’s really weird
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[Unknown]: but
900
00:59:49,200 –> 00:59:53,680
[Unknown]: you can’t just say those things don’t happen because demonstrably those things do
901
00:59:53,920 –> 00:59:59,120
[Unknown]: happen and demonstrably we do have high witnesses for them and again you know
902
00:59:59,280 –> 01:00:02,480
[Unknown]: medical documentation in many cases so
903
01:00:04,160 –> 01:00:07,680
[Unknown]: that was that was where i started it was just dealing with something within my own
904
01:00:08,160 –> 01:00:10,080
[Unknown]: discipline as a new testament scholar
905
01:00:11,120 –> 01:00:17,280
[Unknown]: and grateful to those in other disciplines like the doctors who have compiled
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01:00:17,360 –> 01:00:19,120
[Unknown]: reports and so on some of these
907
01:00:20,560 –> 01:00:24,560
[Unknown]: recently there have been more things published in medical journals that have been
908
01:00:25,040 –> 01:00:26,640
[Unknown]: very helpful for this as well
909
01:00:27,840 –> 01:00:31,680
[Unknown]: but um but again you know how do you explain them well
910
01:00:33,360 –> 01:00:37,760
[Unknown]: based on different world views we’re going to explain them in different ways
911
01:00:39,460 –> 01:00:40,460
[Unknown]: but
912
01:00:41,760 –> 01:00:46,800
[Unknown]: it looks to me like okay well we we do have a god who cares about us a god is
913
01:00:46,880 –> 01:00:54,880
[Unknown]: benevolent but then you know christians also are hit with bys with a very real
914
01:00:55,040 –> 01:00:56,080
[Unknown]: problem of suffering
915
01:00:57,120 –> 01:01:02,880
[Unknown]: and miracles aren’t a panacea for the world’s sufferings but they show us as
916
01:01:02,960 –> 01:01:08,960
[Unknown]: christians what god cares about god cares about people he cares about like planing
917
01:01:09,040 –> 01:01:14,160
[Unknown]: multiplied food we have some accounts of that today too but when he multiplied food
918
01:01:14,400 –> 01:01:16,720
[Unknown]: he cares about people’s hunger when he multiplied
919
01:01:18,480 –> 01:01:21,440
[Unknown]: or when he still storms it cares about people’s safety when he
920
01:01:22,800 –> 01:01:27,680
[Unknown]: healed the sick he cares about people’s health and so these are things you know
921
01:01:27,500 –> 01:01:28,500
[Unknown]: they give us
922
01:01:28,015 –> 01:01:29,015
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: two,
923
01:01:28,400 –> 01:01:34,240
[Unknown]: leads so christians who work in health care are christians who work in providing
924
01:01:34,320 –> 01:01:37,680
[Unknown]: food for people or economic development or um
925
01:01:39,040 –> 01:01:44,560
[Unknown]: tornado shelters or whatever you know we’re carrying on that kind of work and then
926
01:01:44,720 –> 01:01:50,400
[Unknown]: also those of us who pray for these things you know we’re we’re we’re we’re these
927
01:01:50,560 –> 01:01:56,080
[Unknown]: are things god cares about but there’s still the issue god doesn’t do it all the
928
01:01:56,160 –> 01:01:58,480
[Unknown]: time if god did it all the time
929
01:02:00,160 –> 01:02:03,680
[Unknown]: who would listen to craig keener i mean we’d have the apostle paul right here with
930
01:02:03,840 –> 01:02:09,440
[Unknown]: us he would every time he died he would got raised again right so i mean great you
931
01:02:09,440 –> 01:02:13,360
[Unknown]: know hudson taylor and and you know all these great heroes of the faith from the
932
01:02:13,440 –> 01:02:16,240
[Unknown]: eighteen hundreds they’re not with us anymore but
933
01:02:18,720 –> 01:02:25,360
[Unknown]: in the bible miracles are not meant to be a cure for everything had to raise
934
01:02:25,600 –> 01:02:27,120
[Unknown]: everybody from the dead and so on
935
01:02:28,480 –> 01:02:33,280
[Unknown]: miracles like what we see in matthew eleven five and luke seven hundred twenty two
936
01:02:34,000 –> 01:02:40,080
[Unknown]: or matthew twelve twenty eight and luke eleven twenty do i have that right anyway
937
01:02:41,360 –> 01:02:45,280
[Unknown]: miracles are signs of the kingdom they’re a four taste
938
01:02:44,975 –> 01:02:45,975
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: yes, yes,
939
01:02:46,400 –> 01:02:51,600
[Unknown]: there there’s an eschatological confirmation when god makes all things right when
940
01:02:52,400 –> 01:02:58,960
[Unknown]: when god’s justice is you know his day the day of the lord the day of of justice
941
01:02:59,500 –> 01:03:00,500
[Unknown]: comes
942
01:03:00,860 –> 01:03:01,860
[Unknown]: so that
943
01:03:04,560 –> 01:03:08,160
[Unknown]: people say well the problem of suffering there’s an eschatological answer to that
944
01:03:08,320 –> 01:03:13,440
[Unknown]: there’s eschatological answer to injustice what miracles are there are four tastes
945
01:03:13,440 –> 01:03:18,720
[Unknown]: of that there were a reminder that god has not forgotten his promise to us that
946
01:03:18,800 –> 01:03:22,480
[Unknown]: there’s coming a day when he’s gonna wipe away every tear from her eyes so whether
947
01:03:22,560 –> 01:03:26,720
[Unknown]: he does the miracle for us or for somebody else it’s still a gift to us
948
01:03:27,920 –> 01:03:29,520
[Unknown]: because it’s a reminder of a day
949
01:03:31,280 –> 01:03:37,120
[Unknown]: the you know when as jesus has been raised from the dead talk about multiple
950
01:03:37,200 –> 01:03:43,520
[Unknown]: attestation witnesses and people credible enough to die for their testimony but but
951
01:03:43,680 –> 01:03:45,600
[Unknown]: just as jesus was raised from the dead
952
01:03:47,360 –> 01:03:54,160
[Unknown]: someday we who are the body of christ in the one sense will be raised bodily
953
01:03:55,280 –> 01:03:58,480
[Unknown]: transformed to be like his own glorious body in
954
01:04:00,000 –> 01:04:02,720
[Unknown]: the physical sense um i mean
955
01:04:04,160 –> 01:04:08,480
[Unknown]: not the present kind of body paul speaks of that you know different kinds of bodies
956
01:04:08,100 –> 01:04:09,100
[Unknown]: but
957
01:04:10,580 –> 01:04:11,580
[Unknown]: but
958
01:04:12,320 –> 01:04:16,080
[Unknown]: an incorruptible better to translate imperishable
959
01:04:18,320 –> 01:04:19,600
[Unknown]: immortal body so
960
01:04:20,640 –> 01:04:23,520
[Unknown]: there is an eschatological answer but he’s already given us
961
01:04:24,640 –> 01:04:26,880
[Unknown]: a four taste of that in the present and
962
01:04:28,140 –> 01:04:29,140
[Unknown]: in terms of
963
01:04:30,640 –> 01:04:32,960
[Unknown]: you know in a western apologetic context
964
01:04:34,800 –> 01:04:37,520
[Unknown]: they they help us they don’t hurt us
965
01:04:39,200 –> 01:04:40,480
[Unknown]: but in contexts where
966
01:04:41,760 –> 01:04:44,320
[Unknown]: power encounters are are the big thing
967
01:04:46,080 –> 01:04:51,360
[Unknown]: you know in many cultures like i said earlier that’s the main way people are coming
968
01:04:51,340 –> 01:04:52,340
[Unknown]: to faith in christ
969
01:04:53,840 –> 01:04:59,280
[Unknown]: you know you see that in the book of acts you have a palace who can argue an
970
01:04:59,360 –> 01:05:04,160
[Unknown]: argument really well make a really good case you have the jerusalem apostles who
971
01:05:04,320 –> 01:05:09,680
[Unknown]: probably couldn’t do that so well but you know they had they had miracles of signs
972
01:05:09,680 –> 01:05:14,080
[Unknown]: and wonders many are paul who could do both um so
973
01:05:16,000 –> 01:05:20,560
[Unknown]: there are different contexts and different ways that we can make the case for
974
01:05:20,720 –> 01:05:26,400
[Unknown]: christ but all these are god’s gifts to us he’s given so much evidence but
975
01:05:26,640 –> 01:05:30,240
[Unknown]: sometimes people will say well if he doesn’t do it this way
976
01:05:31,520 –> 01:05:36,080
[Unknown]: so i have to see somebody raised from the dead in front of me or you know not not
977
01:05:36,240 –> 01:05:38,880
[Unknown]: even that my name has to be written in the clouds across the sky
978
01:05:41,760 –> 01:05:43,360
[Unknown]: god won’t jump through our hoops
979
01:05:44,420 –> 01:05:45,420
[Unknown]: he’s given
980
01:05:45,175 –> 01:05:46,175
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: no, we won’t
981
01:05:45,360 –> 01:05:50,720
[Unknown]: us evidence and it’s up to us whether we’ll accept it or not but i think he’s given
982
01:05:50,880 –> 01:05:52,000
[Unknown]: us plenty of evidence
983
01:05:54,635 –> 01:05:56,795
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: completely agree. You know you read the Bible.
984
01:05:58,395 –> 01:06:01,435
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: One of the strongest objections against miracles that someone might
985
01:06:01,515 –> 01:06:05,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: have is know, I pray for miracle and didn’t happen. Uh, my dad died.
986
01:06:05,595 –> 01:06:09,035
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Ah, you know I have cancer, and God has it healed me that that sort
987
01:06:09,115 –> 01:06:13,355
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: of thing, And you read the Bible, and and you see miracles are rare.
988
01:06:13,915 –> 01:06:18,155
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Uh, encounters with God didn’t happen every day, even for the giants
989
01:06:18,235 –> 01:06:21,755
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: of the faith. I mean, Moses was around eighty when he first heard
990
01:06:21,995 –> 01:06:26,955
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: from God, and Uh, you’ll find times in Abraham’s life where he went
991
01:06:27,035 –> 01:06:31,195
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: over a decade without having a recorded encounter with God, and A,
992
01:06:31,595 –> 01:06:36,635
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: and so miracles are not common. Uh, you know, almost by definition, I
993
01:06:36,795 –> 01:06:40,075
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: remember an incident a few years ago. I, I, I believe in miracles. I
994
01:06:40,155 –> 01:06:42,875
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: pray for healing and things like that, and I was teaching a college
995
01:06:43,195 –> 01:06:45,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: class and and one of the ladies in the class came up and asked me to
996
01:06:46,075 –> 01:06:49,915
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: pray for her. Uh, she was sick and I remember laughing internally
997
01:06:50,235 –> 01:06:56,475
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: because at that time my kids of I’ five kids, uh, all of whom are at
998
01:06:56,475 –> 01:06:59,595
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: least four and a half of them have asthma. At that time they’d been
999
01:06:59,755 –> 01:07:03,195
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: going through like really hard sicknesses, and I was praying for them
1000
01:07:03,435 –> 01:07:07,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: morning, noon and night, and uh, at the time I was frustrated because
1001
01:07:07,435 –> 01:07:11,035
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: God hadn’t answered my prayer, so she asked me to pray. I chuckled on
1002
01:07:11,035 –> 01:07:15,915
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: the inside. I put my hand on her shoulder, prayed for. She messaged
1003
01:07:16,155 –> 01:07:19,515
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: me that afternoon like two or three hours later and said past, Uh,
1004
01:07:19,675 –> 01:07:24,155
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: pastor, I’m miraculously healed A and I believed her and I was like
1005
01:07:24,235 –> 01:07:27,035
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Well, God, what does she heal my kids? I’ve been praying for them for
1006
01:07:27,115 –> 01:07:30,475
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: so much, but sometimes we’re not going to have the answers to those
1007
01:07:30,715 –> 01:07:34,235
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: questions and I, I’ve seen plenty of times God move, and plenty of
1008
01:07:34,315 –> 01:07:39,515
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: times God not move. and Um, as you say, he does not jump through our
1009
01:07:39,755 –> 01:07:41,035
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: hoops. Right. One last,
1010
01:07:41,120 –> 01:07:44,160
[Unknown]: tonight can i say something like that i know we’re running on time but
1011
01:07:41,275 –> 01:07:44,715
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: uh, big question for you. Oh, please play just sir.
1012
01:07:45,440 –> 01:07:47,040
[Unknown]: but what you said about reported
1013
01:07:48,560 –> 01:07:53,280
[Unknown]: incidents in abraham’s life we don’t want to argue from silence like
1014
01:07:54,335 –> 01:07:55,335
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Sure, yeah,
1015
01:07:55,120 –> 01:08:01,520
[Unknown]: so but there are are explicit or am i are you getting the same feedback from my
1016
01:08:01,260 –> 01:08:02,260
[Unknown]: voice
1017
01:08:03,620 –> 01:08:04,620
[Unknown]: okay
1018
01:08:04,155 –> 01:08:05,355
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Oh, you sound good to me.
1019
01:08:05,440 –> 01:08:10,000
[Unknown]: there there are explicit cases in the bible where people weren’t healed like elisha
1020
01:08:10,480 –> 01:08:14,640
[Unknown]: died of sickness he was still so his his bones were still so full of the power of
1021
01:08:14,720 –> 01:08:18,560
[Unknown]: god they threw a corpse on the top of them the course corpse res stated i think
1022
01:08:18,560 –> 01:08:21,120
[Unknown]: it’s second king’s thirteen or something like that so
1023
01:08:22,560 –> 01:08:29,040
[Unknown]: so we do have you know tropheus attis sick epaphroditus was sick close to the point
1024
01:08:29,200 –> 01:08:34,720
[Unknown]: of death but god mercy on him philippians two the other one was second timothy four
1025
01:08:34,960 –> 01:08:40,240
[Unknown]: think so we have a lot of well not a lot the bible is going to tell us more about
1026
01:08:40,320 –> 01:08:43,440
[Unknown]: the healings than the non healings we don’t really need a whole lot of
1027
01:08:43,520 –> 01:08:48,800
[Unknown]: encouragement to believe in non healings because we know about those but um but it
1028
01:08:48,880 –> 01:08:51,040
[Unknown]: doesn’t tell us about all the healings either so
1029
01:08:52,080 –> 01:08:55,520
[Unknown]: but they did happen more in some some places than in others so
1030
01:08:57,760 –> 01:09:03,040
[Unknown]: we see we see it all over the place in the gospels and acts because the gospel was
1031
01:09:03,200 –> 01:09:08,080
[Unknown]: breaking new ground there and i think that’s where we see it most consistently
1032
01:09:08,320 –> 01:09:11,440
[Unknown]: today as well is where the gospel is breaking new ground
1033
01:09:12,480 –> 01:09:16,720
[Unknown]: that’s not to say he doesn’t do it other times as we’ve both mentioned in other
1034
01:09:16,960 –> 01:09:20,800
[Unknown]: places but just to say we see it most consistently where
1035
01:09:22,640 –> 01:09:27,520
[Unknown]: the dramatic ones are most needed and in terms of when he does it through medical
1036
01:09:27,600 –> 01:09:30,320
[Unknown]: care and so on those aren’t dramatic but
1037
01:09:32,620 –> 01:09:33,620
[Unknown]: we we may say
1038
01:09:35,600 –> 01:09:39,840
[Unknown]: what you said earlier but sometimes god moves sometimes he doesn’t actually he
1039
01:09:40,000 –> 01:09:42,720
[Unknown]: moves all the time but sometimes we see it and sometimes
1040
01:09:42,335 –> 01:09:43,335
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Yes,
1041
01:09:43,040 –> 01:09:48,400
[Unknown]: we don’t in the sense that that we’re alive is god’s gift i mean that you know
1042
01:09:49,120 –> 01:09:51,840
[Unknown]: moment of life is god’s gift so
1043
01:09:53,360 –> 01:09:57,840
[Unknown]: anyway i talk too much so there are too many tangents we could go off on with that
1044
01:09:57,540 –> 01:09:58,540
[Unknown]: but
1045
01:10:00,795 –> 01:10:03,755
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: those are. Those are great clarifications in your absolute right. Um,
1046
01:10:04,635 –> 01:10:09,035
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: God did not answer Paul’s prayer about the thorn in the flesh the way
1047
01:10:09,515 –> 01:10:13,915
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Paul wanted him to. Um. and God did not answer Jesus’ prayer
1048
01:10:13,460 –> 01:10:14,460
[Unknown]: right
1049
01:10:13,995 –> 01:10:17,435
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: in the Garden of Getsemite, the way that Uh, Jesus might have wanted
1050
01:10:17,595 –> 01:10:21,035
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: him to in that moment, but he was most certainly moving and he was
1051
01:10:21,275 –> 01:10:24,795
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: accomplishing incredible things. And and and you’re right from our
1052
01:10:24,955 –> 01:10:29,515
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: perspective, sometimes it it looks like Um, God is silent, or God is
1053
01:10:29,675 –> 01:10:30,955
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: unmoved or un, un,
1054
01:10:32,395 –> 01:10:36,795
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: uh, uh, unactive in our prayers. But I mean he is working his
1055
01:10:37,115 –> 01:10:41,755
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: sovereign plan in every uh molecule in the world, in every mill
1056
01:10:41,995 –> 01:10:45,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: second of the world. We just can’t always see that, and therefore we
1057
01:10:45,435 –> 01:10:46,555
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: sort of feel uh,
1058
01:10:46,180 –> 01:10:47,180
[Unknown]: yes
1059
01:10:46,795 –> 01:10:50,075
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: left out. Uh, and we’re not, And and I also appreciate your point
1060
01:10:50,315 –> 01:10:53,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: about uh, the the pioneering areas of the gospel. You definitely see
1061
01:10:54,075 –> 01:10:57,595
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: that in the Bible. Uh, I do not agree with the dispensationalists,
1062
01:10:57,675 –> 01:11:01,355
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: who who say that there’s only uh, a few eras of scripture where we
1063
01:11:01,435 –> 01:11:04,875
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: see miracles. I, I think you’re absolutely right. We primarily see it
1064
01:11:05,115 –> 01:11:09,915
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: uh, when in places where the gospel is, Uh is on the move on on the
1065
01:11:09,995 –> 01:11:14,235
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: expansion, and we don’t often see it in church history and areas of
1066
01:11:14,555 –> 01:11:18,555
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: enlightenment, where uh. the easiest thing to do is to call nine one
1067
01:11:18,795 –> 01:11:22,955
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: one, as opposed to uh, uh, hitting your knees and seeking the Lord
1068
01:11:23,115 –> 01:11:26,235
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: fervently and I’m not opposed to calling nine one one or doctors or
1069
01:11:26,315 –> 01:11:28,555
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: anything like that. Of course, Okay, final question,
1070
01:11:29,215 –> 01:11:30,215
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Um,
1071
01:11:30,955 –> 01:11:35,115
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: this is from Uh, Mark Corbett, who is a part of the C. A. A Christian
1072
01:11:35,275 –> 01:11:39,355
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Apologetics Alliance Facebook group. Uh, for for those that are out
1073
01:11:39,515 –> 01:11:44,075
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: there, Doctor Keener, that are hungry to see God move wherever they
1074
01:11:44,155 –> 01:11:47,915
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: are. they’re hungry to see more miracles. Uh, and more obvious
1075
01:11:48,235 –> 01:11:50,315
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: movements of God. Knowing God is always
1076
01:11:50,260 –> 01:11:51,260
[Unknown]: like
1077
01:11:50,555 –> 01:11:53,355
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: moving, but they want to see. they want to see more thanraculous.
1078
01:11:53,595 –> 01:11:57,915
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: they want to see revival. Uh, they want to see Um. healings, and that
1079
01:11:57,995 –> 01:12:00,075
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: sort of thing. Do you have any advice for us,
1080
01:12:00,800 –> 01:12:04,480
[Unknown]: yeah i can give i can give some uh but i but i give them
1081
01:12:06,240 –> 01:12:10,560
[Unknown]: more is a a researcher in a sense like there’s different gifts and so my gift is
1082
01:12:10,640 –> 01:12:11,840
[Unknown]: more in the gift of teaching
1083
01:12:11,355 –> 01:13:06,235
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Smm.
1084
01:12:13,040 –> 01:12:17,200
[Unknown]: but like i’ve said sometimes or maybe i didn’t say sometimes when i pray for people
1085
01:12:17,280 –> 01:12:18,720
[Unknown]: they get healed and like you said
1086
01:12:20,720 –> 01:12:24,240
[Unknown]: and i should have said sometimes i pray for people they don’t get healed but
1087
01:12:25,680 –> 01:12:31,920
[Unknown]: and sometimes it’s dramatic and sometimes it’s you know it just i mean if god work
1088
01:12:32,160 –> 01:12:34,640
[Unknown]: through medicine or whatever that’s an answer to prayer
1089
01:12:36,000 –> 01:12:41,040
[Unknown]: but there are parts of the world where that’s not available and so uh
1090
01:12:42,080 –> 01:12:43,440
[Unknown]: we want to work to make it available
1091
01:12:44,560 –> 01:12:46,320
[Unknown]: and we want to pray for for people
1092
01:12:48,320 –> 01:12:53,360
[Unknown]: even in the u s a lot of the cases not all of them by any mean well some of them
1093
01:12:53,680 –> 01:13:00,400
[Unknown]: the spirit specifically led somebody to pray like when uh doctor chanty crandall
1094
01:13:00,800 –> 01:13:04,960
[Unknown]: was led to pray for a man who had been flat lined for forty minutes and the guy
1095
01:13:04,780 –> 01:13:05,780
[Unknown]: came back
1096
01:13:08,560 –> 01:13:10,560
[Unknown]: but he had also prayed for his own son
1097
01:13:12,480 –> 01:13:15,120
[Unknown]: chad who had died of leukemia and he didn’t come back
1098
01:13:18,180 –> 01:13:19,180
[Unknown]: but
1099
01:13:20,240 –> 01:13:24,640
[Unknown]: on the cutting edge of evangelism that matters here in the us too i have a student
1100
01:13:25,680 –> 01:13:26,800
[Unknown]: from new jersey who
1101
01:13:27,380 –> 01:13:28,380
[Unknown]: um
1102
01:13:28,960 –> 01:13:32,400
[Unknown]: he was just out sharing his faith he met a woman who was deaf on the street he
1103
01:13:32,480 –> 01:13:37,760
[Unknown]: prayed for her she was to her surprise was instantly healed um
1104
01:13:38,660 –> 01:13:39,660
[Unknown]: so
1105
01:13:40,240 –> 01:13:42,800
[Unknown]: and actually i’ve seen that sometimes with
1106
01:13:44,960 –> 01:13:50,080
[Unknown]: when we when we’re sharing the gospel with people or maybe maybe we’re just at work
1107
01:13:50,240 –> 01:13:51,760
[Unknown]: you know when it’s a coworker or something
1108
01:13:52,800 –> 01:13:56,640
[Unknown]: but we we stop to offer prayer for them usually people don’t mind if you pray i
1109
01:13:56,720 –> 01:14:00,560
[Unknown]: mean we’re not guaranteeing that god will hear our prayer but we’re showing our
1110
01:14:00,640 –> 01:14:04,080
[Unknown]: concern for them in the way that’s available to us of course if you’re a doctor go
1111
01:14:04,240 –> 01:14:05,680
[Unknown]: ahead and show concern that way too but
1112
01:14:08,240 –> 01:14:12,320
[Unknown]: in in whatever ways that are available to us so we pray for them and sometimes
1113
01:14:13,520 –> 01:14:16,480
[Unknown]: god will heal them and get their attention so
1114
01:14:18,800 –> 01:14:24,480
[Unknown]: and also as an apologist um when you do find people being healed it’s really great
1115
01:14:24,640 –> 01:14:25,760
[Unknown]: to get the documentation
1116
01:14:27,060 –> 01:14:28,060
[Unknown]: if it’s available
1117
01:14:27,455 –> 01:14:28,455
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Mhm,
1118
01:14:28,320 –> 01:14:29,920
[Unknown]: i mean a lot of times it’s not available
1119
01:14:31,520 –> 01:14:34,320
[Unknown]: uh you don’t have before and after records
1120
01:14:35,680 –> 01:14:40,160
[Unknown]: it depends on what it is but but if they’re available and if it’s not gonna cause
1121
01:14:40,320 –> 01:14:44,160
[Unknown]: the person to stumble you know like you just you just prayed for me so you could
1122
01:14:44,320 –> 01:14:47,840
[Unknown]: get the documentation or whatever but you know if it’s if it’s appropriate
1123
01:14:49,440 –> 01:14:51,440
[Unknown]: try to get the documentation because then
1124
01:14:52,480 –> 01:14:53,840
[Unknown]: the testimony can go further
1125
01:14:55,200 –> 01:15:00,720
[Unknown]: often in the gospels it says after jesus healed somebody and everybody glorified
1126
01:15:00,960 –> 01:15:03,200
[Unknown]: god or at least they were all amazed
1127
01:15:04,800 –> 01:15:07,280
[Unknown]: the testimony can go further if you can
1128
01:15:09,020 –> 01:15:10,020
[Unknown]: you know to a
1129
01:15:11,040 –> 01:15:13,120
[Unknown]: a skeptical generation if you can
1130
01:15:14,140 –> 01:15:15,140
[Unknown]: get some of the
1131
01:15:16,080 –> 01:15:17,360
[Unknown]: the corroboration for it
1132
01:15:20,955 –> 01:15:25,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: That is great counsel. You mentioned prayer. I read an interview with
1133
01:15:25,435 –> 01:15:29,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Uh pastor Tim Keller, Earlier today, T Keller was the pastor of
1134
01:15:29,995 –> 01:15:32,315
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Redeemer Church in New York City, retired
1135
01:15:33,515 –> 01:15:38,475
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: fighting cancer. At the moment, he was as the question. Um. What is
1136
01:15:38,715 –> 01:15:44,635
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: one regret You have Uh of your ministry And he gave a one’ answer And
1137
01:15:44,335 –> 01:15:45,335
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: it was.
1138
01:15:46,155 –> 01:15:49,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: It was wonderful and devastating At the same time to hear it. As a
1139
01:15:50,075 –> 01:15:55,115
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: pastor, he said, I wish I prayed more, and I think that that’s good
1140
01:15:55,275 –> 01:15:57,515
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: counsel for anybody seeking a
1141
01:15:57,675 –> 01:16:03,435
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: miraculous move of God. that uh, we we abide John, Fifteen. Apart
1142
01:15:57,700 –> 01:15:58,700
[Unknown]: yeah
1143
01:16:03,515 –> 01:16:08,555
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: from him we can do nothing. and uh, I think the more Um, I don’t know
1144
01:16:08,635 –> 01:16:11,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: that there’s uh. you. You pray ten hours a day. you’re gonna see ten
1145
01:16:12,155 –> 01:16:15,115
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: miracles, kind of correlation. In fact, I know there’s not that kind
1146
01:16:15,195 –> 01:16:19,835
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: of correlation, but I, I do know that the people who have uh uh
1147
01:16:19,995 –> 01:16:23,675
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: committed their life to pray, uh, and to pray for the sick, or will
1148
01:16:23,915 –> 01:16:28,395
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: definitely see Uh. more miracles. people like Ree Howells, Uh, people
1149
01:16:28,635 –> 01:16:33,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: like John Praying Hyde, Uh, people like Uh M. Hickson, the Anglican,
1150
01:16:34,235 –> 01:16:37,755
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Uh gentleman, you mentioned in your book, Uh, well, Doctor Keer, I
1151
01:16:37,755 –> 01:16:41,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: can’t thank you enough for your time. Uh, we have made a donation to
1152
01:16:41,435 –> 01:16:47,115
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Iris Global. Uh, which Uh, does ministry in Musm, beque, uh, all
1153
01:16:47,195 –> 01:16:49,755
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: sorts of ministry, feeding the hungry, taking care of orphans,
1154
01:16:49,915 –> 01:16:53,355
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: proclaiming the gospel, praying for the sick and seeing miracles, And
1155
01:16:53,515 –> 01:16:56,955
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: I would encourage you if you were listening to this podcast To also
1156
01:16:57,275 –> 01:17:01,275
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: uh, make a donation to Iris Global and Doctor Keener’s honor, Doctor
1157
01:17:01,435 –> 01:17:05,995
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: Gaer. Your time is precious. You are an incredibly busy man and and I
1158
01:17:06,075 –> 01:17:10,075
[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: am so grateful that you have interacted with me by email, and that
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: you have spent time here on the podcast. and uh, as as we prayed
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: before, uh, we started made the Lord use this, Uh, in mighty ways, in
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: multiple ways for his kingdom. Thank you,
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[Unknown]: thank thank you brother god bless you
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[chase_thompson_3dqpod]: God bless you. Take care.